So I have actually been on the line for about 2 months now and it still isn't clicking...I'm not making craters or anything, but i'm landing alot further down the runway than i'd like, i'm aiming for a smooth touchdown and get it, but at the risk of 500-1000+ ft. Any suggestions?

Monitor the Vref speed across the threshold...power as per the aircraft landing specs. Stay on profile and on speed through to your particular aiming point. Fly into the landing.

What kind of plane RJ 200,700 or 900?, ERJ?

ERJ

Waving that particular question under my nose is like dangling honey in front of the nose of hungry bear….

The reason you are landing farther down the runway than you want is very likely because you are trying to get a smooth touchdown. While a lot of folks tend to think that a good landing can be detected by how smooth the touchdown is, please know that this isn’t the truth. Talk to the really “old heads” and see what they say. Once you get the technique down and it becomes second nature, you’ll be able to finesse the actual touchdown and get smoother touchdowns without sacrificing anything. And when its necessary to forego the applause-generating touchdowns – like in strong crosswinds, or standing water or slush or snow – you will be very glad that your technique will be exactly correct for the situation. Going for the softer the touchdown requires the nose to be higher. The higher the nose the closer you are to striking the tail. That’s very bad for airplane structures. You also have less authority over directional control – to the extent that very high nose attitudes tend to blank out the rudder – meaning that you wind up with zero directional control until you get the nose down. Also, holding the airplane in the air waiting for the airplane to land you isn’t the idea. YOU are the pilot, not the airplane. You will also chew up runway surface a lot more quickly in the air and touchdown a lot farther down the runway than you would like. Every airplane ever constructed can be (and should be) landed using exactly the same technique – it just takes a small amount of understanding and a willingness to apply what you’ve learned.

The airplane should be landed from a level flight attitude – but there are three requirements: first, you have to know what that attitude is; second, you have to be in that attitude about 5 feet above the runway surface; and third, the throttles should reach the idle position as the main wheels touch down. Here’s where the “technique” comes in…

When you decide you want to flare, begin the rotation to an attitude that would maintain level flight at the airspeed you will reach at the end of that flare. Since final approach is normally flown at 1.3Vs – the airspeed I’m describing would be about 1.2 – 1.25 Vs + plus any gust factor that you were maintaining. Remember that the “1/2-the-wind-and-all-the-gust” addition you carry on final is to be reduced to just “the gust value” by the time you reach the runway threshold. The trick is finding out what that level flight attitude really is – and it varies depending on gross weight and aircraft configuration. More about that in a moment.

You should time the flare initiation and rate to arrive at that “level flight attitude” when you reach 5 feet above the runway. The technique part is that you now maintain THAT attitude – and, of course, to be able to maintain that attitude as the airspeed begins to slow, you will have to increase the back-pressure on the elevator controls. Please note, that is back-pressure only to maintain the level flight attitude – NOT to increase the pitch. Also, where you begin to reduce the throttles to idle, and the speed with which you pull them back to that point will depend on the characteristics of the particular airplane. Remember, the goal is to get to idle as the mains touch. The reason is that you don’t want to be a glider and you don’t want to land with power on.

OK, a bit more about that level flight attitude. The only way to find that out is to do it. But, and this is important, it isn’t wise to try this with passengers on board; and I wouldn’t do it on a repositioning or ferry flight unless the guy in the other seat knows what you’re doing and is fully in agreement for you to try this. I’m talking about flying straight and level for some distance down the runway without climbing, descending, accelerating, or decelerating. The idea is to learn what attitude will allow you to do that. However, the greater probability of your being able to try this out is the next time you’re in the simulator. If the simulator is newer and programmed correctly, (and all the ERJ simulators out there are relatively new) you’ll be able to determine this attitude for several gross weight ranges and aircraft configurations. Fly down to the runway at the proper speed. Begin your flare to reach an altitude of 5 feet above the runway at that “level flight attitude.” Add a bit of power and fly down the length of the runway at that airspeed and altitude. Don’t climb; don’t descend; don’t accelerate; don’t decelerate. Keep the wings level with the ailerons and the nose pointed down the runway with the rudder. Do this a couple of times, using whatever you see, hear, or feels good for you. Remember, the important thing is to fly the length of the runway at that airspeed (approx 1.2 to 1.25 of Vs) without climbing, descending, accelerating, or decelerating. In a couple of attempts you should be able to “feel” the airplane when it wants to climb/descend or accelerate/decelerate. When that happens, you’ll know what attitude is necessary for level flight. THAT is the attitude you should seek at the end of your landing flare. Do this with differing flap configurations – different flap settings will alter the level flight attitude slightly. If you arrive at 5 feet above the runway … if you continue (or initiate) the power reduction … if you maintain the level flight attitude with back-pressure … your touch down will be firm but very acceptable and you will be able to control when you touchdown. By releasing some of that back pressure you should be able to “land the airplane” right now – which will become more important to you when landing in relatively stiff crosswinds. In a crosswind you may have to bank slightly into the wind to keep from drifting after you pressure the nose around to line up with the runway. But, because you won’t be too far above the runway, you won’t be in that condition too long and unless the winds are pretty strong, they may not be able to overcome the momentum of the airplane to begin a drift prior to you putting the wheels on the surface.

This technique works day and night, rain or shine, dry runway, wet or snow covered runway, no wind, head wind, tail wind, or cross wind – and it works for every airplane. Try it and let me know how it works.

Ummmmm, yeah. What AirRabbit said. Seriously, he's spot on with both his analysis and his suggested procedures and techniques. I'll just add on quick suggestion that may or may not apply. I'm not a regional guy. They were called commuter airlines when I was coming up. I don't know a lot about the RJ families. So, here's the caveat. If you're flying something that is autoland capable, read on. If not, it's optional.

You want to learn how to land your airplane properly with almost no effort? Hook up the autoflight system on an approach and allow the system to do an autoland. Then do your landings EXACTLY the same way that the autoland system does a landing. It's pretty much idiot proof. I know because I'm...... never mind.

This might be a good chance to expand on newer autoflight systems. Autoflight (fancier autpilot systems) are really designed with passenger comfort in mind. The idea is to program the autoflight system so that it controls the airplane in such a way that, a) your boss' cocktail doesn't spill on his first class tray and thusly into his/her lap, and b) we don't hear Fran screaming "OCH!" back in coach. It does things pretty much the way that a good pilot should aspire to do them with only a couple of exceptions. If more pilots emulated those systems it would make for more comfortable flights. I get many, many complaints from the boxes that I fly when things aren't done smoothly.

Nope, no auto land on these or auto-throttles. They say its real flying because you actually get to use your hands, my IOE captain told me that as you move up things get a little more complicated and you actually fly the airplane less and less. Some companies require that you have the AP on for almost the entire flight.

Airrabbit, that was some read. I have a trip this Monday ad I will definitely try that, the only thing with the ERj is you need a pretty high nose up attitude to reverse the VS sometimes.

You lost me with this one. If you're correcting with only pitch that might be part of your problem. Look, any landing is an exercise in energy management. It doesn't matter what you're flying. And managing energy when you're close to the ground is probably one of the bigger challenges in aviation. A lot of it comes from being familiar with what you're flying. I don't need to look down at the Primary Flight Display (PFD) to know that the person in the other seat is high, low, fast or slow. I've been flying the same piece of equipment for almost 13 years. But early on I did have to monitor what was going on by glancing at the PFD during an approach. That's about where you are now. You need to know if you're fast, on speed or slow. You need to know if you're high, on the proper approach path or low. And then you need to combine that knowledge into a workable, basic, flying solution. Example:

You're a bit low on the PAPI and a couple of knots slow on the V speed. Raise the nose, right? But you also have to add a touch of power.

I know this sounds very basic and I apologize if it offends you. I currently fly with a lot of inexperienced pilots in the equipment that I fly. You'd be amazed at how many of them, including high time, highly flying educated military pilots, that don't pay attention to the basic stuff. And if you're all gooned up during the approach phase guess what happens when you transition to the landing?

I'm all good on the speed I guess its the depth perception part of it.I will try this out, got a 1230pm show today we''ll see how it goes!

These guys, AirRabbit and Ranger. I don't know. They've only been driving airplanes for 32 1/2 brazillion years or so. What do they know?

Ok, ok, they know a heck of a lot more than me. I'd listen to them.

What I'd like to add:

You obviously know how to fly a proper glidepath. I assume you know the approximate N1 setting to fly glidepath, full flaps and gear down.

Fly that profile to the numbers. At that point round out, power to idle at 10 feet and relax back pressure and aim for the touchdown point. Don't try too hard for a "smooth" touchdown. It will come. Given a bit of time you will see what a "greaser" landing looks like in your plane.

The key here, though, is putting the plane on the proper spot on the runway. As you have written, floating a bit takes up a lot of runway. At the speeds you're moving, at Vref +/-, you eat up more than 200 feet of runway per second. That's not much when on a 12,000 foot runway. It means everything on a 5,000 foot runway. Landing might very well mean the pax martini is shaken, not stirred. Put the plane where you want, bumps be damned.

You'll see the picture with a little time. In that time smooth landings, in the touchdown area, will become the norm. Though, they should never be always. Sometimes it's best to do a "carrier" landing. You know this. Put the airplane on the proper spot on the runway. Getting to the hotel at happy hour is key.

I hope I've helped.

Learguy and Ranger are both on target. If you have the availability of an "autoland" system - watching a couple of autolands will show you the proper attitude - which, by the way, is the attitude that will allow you to achieve level flight at that point ... and putting the wheels of the airplane on the runway surface at the proper point cannot be over-emphasized. Airplanes are notorious for being able to stop a lot faster when on the ground than while still airborne.

My personal technique when flying a narrow body aircraft is to "aim" for a point just short of the fixed distance markers ... and when flying a wide body aircraft, to "aim" for a point about 500 feet beyond the fixed distance markers. By "aim," I mean fly toward that section of the runway that doesn't move "up" or "down" in the windscreen as I continue the approach. By doing this and then initiating the flare at a point that will get me to a wheel height of about 5 feet above the runway by the time I get to that level flight attitude, and with the flare itself (and the lower power setting, even if I haven't yet started the power reduction) will get me to that level flight attitude at a speed of about 1.2 to 1.25 of Vs. Then by continuing the power reduction and adding a bit of back pressure to keep the nose where it was at the end of the flare, the airspeed decay and the continued descent, now from 5 feet, will allow you to touch down (in a narrow body) between 1000 and 1500 feet down the runway - or - to touch down (in a wide body) between 1250 (maybe 1500) feet and 1750 (maybe 2000) feet down the runway. Also because of being closer to the runway surface, if it becomes necessary, you can “plant” the wheels (make a more firm touchdown – but still not overly heavy) when it becomes necessary due to crosswinds or runway clutter (slush, water, snow, etc.). Also, because of having been at the level flight attitude (slightly nose high), the distance you have to move the nose gear to the runway is smaller, allowing you to get the nose wheel down more quickly without driving it onto (or through?) the runway surface.

Oh man, I'm thrilled reading this...
This is a whole aerodynamics class put together with a flying technique class!

I think that it is also fair to define what a good landing is. I my opinion, is it one that is in the right place (in the TDZ on the centreline), wheels landing in the correct order: mains (upwind first) then nose and with the controls in the correct position - at the correct speed (Vref - x). This will be performed from a stablised approach. Notice I haven't described the touch-down? As long as you don't hurt anyone and you can use the plane again - it's a probably a good landing! Don't go for smooth landings - just acceptable ones. You've noticed what happens if you go for smooth. For myself, I'll wack a few in every now and again (normally when very light) but I'm afraid that it goes with the job. However, I'll always go for speed and position and if I get a smooth one it's just a bonus. As for technique, I totally agree with the posts above.

PM

Agreed PM! My primary concern is hitting the runway in the proper region in the manner which allows me to stop successfully, with the bonus being making my targeted taxiway. Spilled coffee, ruffled newspapers, hair and ego are sometimes casualties of a "safe" arrival.

Funny how a safe landing and a smooth landing are so often confused.

So I've tried being more straight-forward with the touchdown at the markers. Day 1 of my last trip on the first leg,...... buried the gear in the runway it was a complete ' plant '. Second leg was a lot better, on the markers and quick stop, however we had to taxi all the way to the end of the rwy due to taxiways closures. the 3-5th leg were all non-events safe landings with a little bump just to ensure we were on the ground!

You could use the plane again, so what was the problem? The bump is to tell you that you have landed. In the UK, the pilots are so bad that bumps have been put in the runway in the TDZ. Visit MAN Rwy 24R, LBA Rwy 34, MME Rwy 05, BRS Rwy 27 and BHX Rwy 33 and you'll see what I mean

PM

Does it count if we have to make MX to check the aircraft for the hard landing, but it still was usable again?

...Now, something serious about this...How would ground effect affect the technique prescribed before by the masters in here? The ERJ is a low wing, and lands with a nice amount of speed, so, how to prevent, for example, ballooning in the flare before the (first... ) touchdown? Or is it just a matter of speed?

The techniques described in this thread should work for you regardless of what you're flying. Flying something without leading edge devices will change the approach pitch angle but it won't have any effect on what you do when you transition to the landing phase. On centerline, in the touchdown zone with an approximately level pitch attitude should work for pretty much anything you fly. The end objective is to have the throttles hit the idle stop at the same instant that the mains touch the runway and have the speed right at Vref- about 5 knots. If you're ballooning you're either a little fast or you're over rotating the pitch in ground effect. Stop doing that. Now.

Ranger is absotutely correct! ... from C150s, to military fighters, to transport category wide bodies.


Again ... Ranger is absotutely correct. This is the reason I described the "LEVEL FLIGHT ATTITUDE" and used "5 FEET ABOVE THE RUNWAY" and then emphasized "AT THE AIRSPEED AT THE END OF THE FLARE." That was to be sure you would be at an attitude that would achieve level flight ... at that airspeed, just off the runway, and inside of ground effect. If you put the nose at a position above what it would take to maintain level flight in those circumstances, you'll probably balloon. If you hold that attitude, you'll chew up more of that precisous runway below you; and if you push the nose over, you'll begin to come down - pretty fast. The higher above the runway you were when you did that, the more time you're giving the airplane to accelerate DOWN and the harder you're going to hit - and rotating further to slow the downward acceleration brings you closer to striking the tail.

If you bring the nose up to the attitude that you know would be level flight attitude for Vref minus some number (and minus 5 knots is a good, round number), but you are carrying Vref plus 8 knots, your pitch attitude will be too high for the airspeed ... and you'll balloon. (See the last 2 sentences of the previous paragraph for complications from this position!) The reason for the "HAVE-THE-THROTTLES-AT-THE-STOPS-WHEN-THE-WHEELS-TOUCH" comment was to be sure you were consious of where the throttles are and of the fact that you should be decelerating through the flare to minimize the chance of having your airspeed at or above Vref.

The touchdown isn't supposed to be "feather light." It's supposed to put the wheels on the surface - and that means through any contaminants that might be on that surface. A nice, firm, touchdown. By the way, a "firm" touchdown is not supposed to loosen the fillings in your teeth or clean the dust from behind the overhead panel … and if you do get a bit of dust in your eyes when you touch down, you’re probably not at the level flight attitude for the airspeed achieved at the end of the flare … OR … if the attitude and airspeed was correct at the end of the flare (and assuming you don't "dump" the nose), the end of your flare was AWFULLY high above the runway!

Remember -- the pilot flies the airplane ... not the other way around!

I don't know...I've jumpseated with some CRJ drivers and those crazy SOB's start to pull the throttles out at 100 feet with the nose pointed down at the runway with Vref and flight idle at 50 feet AGL or so...looks like we're going to slam the nose into the ground from the jumpseat. They always pull it out and land on target and pretty grease...but it sure looks freaky.

I've never been any good at instructing or anything like that...and it's great to have some free training from the "old guys'...

Did you read that, AirRabbit? He.... called us, aww geez, OLD. What is up with that? I mean, come on...

If I could just remember where I put my cane, I'd beat the......

What? He called us old? Old? Naw. Really? Lemme put my teeth in and find my specs ... then I'll help you hunt for your cane...

...Would ya'll like me to get you guys a walker...or maybe a wheelchair...or would you just forget what you needed it for by that time...? You know...whatever I can do to help...

Hey, WAIT a #$&@!! minute...Learguy is the one who said you two have been flying for Brazillions of years...that's GOT to imply that ya'll are old...I don't know how many a Brazillion is. but it sure sounds like a bunch...especially since you can't really start flying until you are in your teens. Beat him with the cane...he started it.

I'm just sayin'...

Just hang on, Dude. I can't find my glasses. I need more time to get it together. In the meantime................

I'm thinking that you should run outside and practice falling down and bleeding. I'll be along directly.

You heard him, come one 27, let's go catch Lear...