Vatsim Routes Options

[DeltaBoeing727]

Why is that around 5 or 6 of my filed flight plans on VATSIM are invalid?? I've planned a few trips in Europe and the US and so far quite a few of them have been deemed invalid. Here's my process: I go to simroutes.com and see if there are any pre-made routes. (In each case, there are). Then i have the option to download it into squawkbox, which i do. I insert all the right info and when i contact the center or delivery, they often tell me that certain vectors are invalid, or no longer used as routes. Once or twice, i was able to bargain with the ATC and he let me fly my "invalid route" but why would it be deemed invalid on VATSIM but be availible to the public on simroutes?? Also, is there a quick and easy way i can fix this? If you are a controller on VATSIM, you might know the answer and i would very much like one. Thanks for your help!Long live the forums!

[klm_city_hopper]

I've had the same problem, most of the time your just gunna have to get on with it. I haven't used Vatsim for donkeys, but I swear there's a program that does it all for you. Eric will be on soon, he should be a hand.

[DeltaBoeing727]

I've heard about a program called FSNav, but i'm not sure what it does. What i usually do is let FS generate my route for me, then it plugs it into the GPS when i fly. I never fly without my GPS, so it's much easier than downloading pounds of charts for just VATSIM. And lemme tell you, you make one wrong turn and the ATCs rip their throat out yelling at you, so i really dont want to make that mistake again, lol!

[coolpilot06]

Could you give an example of a route that was said to be "invalid?" Where were you leaving from? Where were you going? Sometimes it's best to use the routes from the ARTCC webpage as well (links at vatsim.net)

If you like to fly "real" flights, I recommend using FlightAware. You can look up specific IFR flights and use that route in Flight Sim. The Flight Sim flightplanner works, but I only use it as a last resort as it is often inefficient. For me, I find the route on Flight Aware, copy it down on, then go into Flight Sim's flightplanner, hit GPS Direct b/w the two airports, then go into the map view and find the waypoints I need...it's often tedious, but it's free (as I believe you have to pay for the other flightplan builder programs). For those hard-to-find waypoints, I use Airnav .

[milehigheric]

I will repeat what coolpilot06 said..... Post an example of an invalid flight plan and i will tell you why it is invalid. My guess without an example is that certain way points or airways are no longer valid, meaning they have either been removed, or changed significantly to be renamed.

I can't say what the problem is with simroutes is as i do not use it personally, but my guess is that it is not being updated regularly...

Also you mentioned that you let FS generate a route for you and simply follow the GPS...This is by no means an incorrect way of flying, but if you wanna bring a new level of realism to your flying try and do without the GPS. Obviously many planes are equipped with a GPS nowadays, but nothing beats the good old fashion tradition navigation.

All i can suggest is that you check over your route before submitting it. Initial controllers usually only check the first couple of waypoints, as just like the real world, once you are out of there sector then you are no longer there problem lol. To check your waypoints simply bring up the FS map screen and ensure that the waypoints you are planning to file appear and that the overall route takes you to your destination without to much mess around....

[Intergalactic]

In addition to what Eric have said. Be sure to check that the waypoints (if any) isn't mispelled.

I used to be a controller for VATSIM and I have never had a problem with any pilot about their flight plans. Otherwise it was just the controller who is having trouble adjusting. (Who knows, he might be a student controller for all I know.)

And yes please. Post that plan for us to see.

IG

[DeltaBoeing727]

I will repeat what coolpilot06 said..... Post an example of an invalid flight plan and i will tell you why it is invalid. My guess without an example is that certain way points or airways are no longer valid, meaning they have either been removed, or changed significantly to be renamed.

I can't say what the problem is with simroutes is as i do not use it personally, but my guess is that it is not being updated regularly...

Also you mentioned that you let FS generate a route for you and simply follow the GPS...This is by no means an incorrect way of flying, but if you wanna bring a new level of realism to your flying try and do without the GPS. Obviously many planes are equipped with a GPS nowadays, but nothing beats the good old fashion tradition navigation.

All i can suggest is that you check over your route before submitting it. Initial controllers usually only check the first couple of waypoints, as just like the real world, once you are out of there sector then you are no longer there problem lol. To check your waypoints simply bring up the FS map screen and ensure that the waypoints you are planning to file appear and that the overall route takes you to your destination without to much mess around....

Okay, i'll post an example: On a flight from Manchester to Heathrow, i submitted the following routes: TNT, DTY, BNN, LON. Manchester called back and said that TNT (Trent) was no longer a route and that LON was unused as well. Also, on any flights out of ATL or LAX, they want a LAXX5 or ATL5. And honestly, i'm not entirely sure these exist either in FS or in real life. And i'm not sure how to ADD waypoints in FS. Another example: a flight from ATL-MEM, and i filed: GAD, HAB, TUP, MEM. Again, they wanted two or three extra routes placed into my pre-made one. And GOD FORBID you ask them to help you out with bearings or waypoints b/c they bark back, "Negative!! You filed the flight plan, you should know what vectors to go to and how to get there!! It's not my job to hold your hand as you fly, sir. Either fly right, or cancel IFR!" (This is word-for-word ATL_DEL said to me when i filed this plan). So it's risky enough just filing a plan in general without getting degraded over all of Atlanta Center.

My first IFR flight, i did copy the vectors from FlightAware to use them. It was on a flight from San Juan- TNCM. And the only problem with that was...i was flying blind. Like i mentioned earlier, i'm unsure how to create vectors on FS, so i got scolded by San Juan Center. (The only reason he helped me was b/c i told him this was my first IFR flight and he wasn't so busy). So if someone knows how to plug and play vectors on FS, that would be GREATLY appreciated!

SimRoutes, i've only used once, maybe twice, and it turned out to be invalid anyways. And again, i would've been flying "blindly" b/c i couldn't plug it into my GPS. I wont fly IFR without my GPS. However, i was wondering...is it possible to get a non-vector flight? You know, you just follow one gigantic arc without turning random lefts and rights to get there? I've never tried it, but i was just wondering if anyone else has. I know, btw, that it isn't "incorrect" to fly that way, and i never did. (You may have misread me, milehigh, sorry). I just said that on VATSIM, it's kind of unreliable.

Again, thanks a lot for everyone's help. I'm just new on VATSIM, and it's just a real pain in the keister now, b/c it's gotta be inevitably "perfect" and every little bit helps. So please post any answers if you have them, thanks so much!!


-Delta

[Intergalactic]

Delta, I can understand you being new to VATSIM. But to tell you the truth I have never seen ANY controller (during my time there) scolding anyone about their plan. "Either fly right or Cancel IFR" is just rude IMO.

My suggestion is to copy down your original flight route on a piece of paper. And if the controller decided to add or subtract a few routes. Do that according so. And when you are in your GPS. Hit the button that looks like a striked out D and hit the 2nd right arrow (Located beneath the first arrow) twice and input the route identifier, hit enter and activate that waypoint. Hold the CLR button until your GPS shows your map once again and then navigate according so.

I am not a pro pilot or anything. But I tell you the first things I was accepted into ATC was because of patience and the ability to help others out. I haven't seen any controller just ditching a pilot like that. The least they could do is suggest taking a training course, etc. Sure some controllers may get a bit upset. But that is the way they are.

Hopefully this helps out.
Regards and happy flying!
Intergalactic

[coolpilot06]

Hi Delta, hope to answer some of your questions:

- Sometimes, just like in real life, there are standard published routes between airports for flow factor reasons. It makes things much easier if everybody is coming in and leaving from a few fixes as opposed to wherever you want (or sometimes even makes sense!) The route from EGCC-EGLL that you filed, for example, is not valid because a standard, more preferred routing apparantly exists between those two airports. Those routes are:

LISTO N615 HON (OR) HON BNN3A

I found those routes on the VATSIM-UK ASRC page.

Actually, there is such thing as the LAX5 / ATL5 departure...called SIDS (Std. Instrument Departures), these are found at most major airports. SIDS (departures) and STARS (arrivals) make the controller's workload (in real-life) much easier.

You can find the SIDS, STARS, and other charts for US airports at MyAirplane.
You can also find preferred routing for most airports on the ARTCC site.

- On your next flight, try this:
- Fly from two airports using the preferred routing. For example, try LGA-BOS (a very popular route). Go to the NY ARTCC Route Webpage. You will notice the preferred routing is:

LAGUARDIA9 MERIT ORW ORW3

- Go to MyAirplane and download the LGA9 dp for LGA and the ORW3 arrival for BOS.
- Copy that down on paper.
- Start Flight Sim.
- Go to Flight Planner, select dp=LGA, arr=BOS, direct GPS. Now go to the map view? (or edit...I forget which it is) and you will notice a map with a line between the two airports.
- Now comes to hard part. You can drag the line and select the desired VORs, NDBs, or Intersections and add them to your flight plan. First you will find MERIT. Note the Latitude / Longitude from the chart and go there in the editor. You will notice a pink triangle. If you zoom in close enough you can read the names of the navaids. When you find MERIT, drag the course line over the triangle, and MERIT will be added to your plan. Then it's just direct to ORW VOR, and then joining the arrival and adding the waypoints. Click Save and now you can fly that preferred routing using your GPS....just follow the course line. I know it's a lot of work, but using VATSIM is a lot of fun, and it's worth it....there are payware programs that can do it for you, as well...plus you can use FMC programs...but one step at a time here!
- Now, if per chance "ATC" asks you to fly direct to an intersection midflight, you would follow the procedure Intergalactic described in programming the GPS. Unlike the real-life Garmin GPS, the FS GPS doesn't allow you to add waypoints once you're enroute.

- Indeed, if a controller said "Either fly right or cancel IFR" to you on VATSIM that was uneccessary. Next time, you can report them if you want to. I once had a controller curse me out when I was starting out and didn't know a thing about "flying" online...I reported them because it was a bit excessive, unprofessional, and NOT what VATSIM is all about. After all - it's only a game!

Worst comes to worst, just wing it You'll get the hang of it, and unlike real life, you're allowed to make mistakes! It's only a game... I think it gets kind of boring when everybody does what they're supposed to do on VATSIM - the worst thing that could happen is you spoil some punky 12 year old's "landing." (joking of course).

Hope that helps.
Matt.

[EL-AL]

Alright, I haven't read trough all the replies and finished every reply but I get what's the problem. I"m not sure if there are many controllers here, but as a controller I can tell you a bit more about it. I don't know about Simroutes since I haven't flow in the US a lot but for Europe we have a great system that is up to date and has most of the routes. When I get invalid flightplans which are very common routes and are easily available I must say that it's a very lazy pilot job though I try to treat the situation and give the pilot the correct route without any problems and in most cases pilots have no problem in changing their flightplans so it's really not a big deal. Pilots that argue about it will usually not get me to accept their flightplan since rather than arguing they can PM me nicely and the Control controllers cannot have pilots fly those invalid routes, so I must say it's just pointless to argue. I'm not sure how it is exactly in your case but after reading that you don't know that ATL5 (I don't know US SIDs but I know about ones in my airspace) was a SID (copilot explained it) it really shows me that you haven't done much of reading/planning and just rushed to get some waypoints. That's just lazy and many pilots think they will just get flying like that, but trust me it takes time. Read, there is a lot of good information on VATSIM and most people (while not controlling, the worst thing to do would be to ask "what is a SID" to a busy controller) will answer you. I plan my flights at least a few days before flying and get all the charts for my route including the flightplan. If I have any doubts about my flightplan I will go to a local controller and ask him/her WHILE NOT CONTROLLING or while they are and it's NOT BUSY. I did have many busy situations and if you get a busy controller he/she won't be able to help you much because they have a lot of traffic. Unfortunalty I did have cases where I couldn't help pilots much but I always try to send them the route via text rather than give a link to the flightplan database like many others too. In summary, read information and plan before flying online. To me this was easier because I started controlling way before flying and this introduced a lot of knowledge to me. Good luck next time


(sorry about sp. mistakes if any)

[DeltaBoeing727]

Allright, so here's another recent example that maybe you can tell me how exactly it works. Yesterday evening, i filed a flight plan from LAX-SFO as China Airlines Cargo. ("Dynasty 5 Heavy" sounds cool, dont you think? Lol!) And i filed my flight plan as follows:

LAXX5 FIM FLW PRB SNS OSI

And i checked in with deluvery and said it was okay, but i just needed to chnge like two vectors. And i could cope with that, so here's what he gave me instead:

VTU5 RZS BSR SNS OSI

So I went to work on it on my GPS and it wouldn't cooperate. I tried the "Direct To" button, but it only gave me one vector at a time and it took forever to scroll through b/c i had to pass every vector in the world just to get all these vectors put in. And it took ½ an hour just to get VTU5. And when i went back on the GPS, it only showed me that vector and got rid of all my others! So then i actually went into FS and tried creating a VOR-VOR route manually...and it wont let you do it! All it does it that FS builds the route and the only ability you have is to delete waypoints, not add them or create them manually. And i've heard of some websites that if you build the route on there, they'll upload the info into FS, but i dont think i know any. (Does SimRoutes do that?) So if anyone is a GPS expert at these kinds of things, yur help is greatly appreciated. I miss the days in offline FS where it didnt have to be VOR, you can just go Direct-GPS, and that was so much easier. Lol

[Sportskid11]

I am indeed a VATSIM controller. Most airports have only valid exit points. They can be found at the ARTCCs website. Now for example at JFK, the airports that are close have LOAs. In which certain route has to be followed. On Simroutes it has multiple routes. One is usually the preferred. Now as long as you have a valid exit point, you should be able to have any route. Maybe they are talking about altitudes. RVSM. Also it would be good to start a VATSIM forum.