Landing At Gibraltar Visual Approaches, landing at gibraltar in visual approach and bad weather Options

[barney]

Has anyone ehre had the misfortune or indeed the excitement however you view it of landing at this airport in bad weather doing a visual approach. I was told that gibraltar does indeed have an ils so why isnt this used in bad weather? We had to land in very heavy wind and rain at gibraltar a visual approach to runway 9 and well not just me but most people on plane even hardened travellers were gasping and some screamed. The plane pitching and rolling violently. Whats the procedure if the weather is too bad.

I dont how true this statement is but i was told planes fly to malaga if weather at gibraltar is too bad, but what is god forbid if weather is bad at malaga too? then what. I heard a story from the man in checkin that his plane actually had 3 attampts at landing at gibraltar once must me a common thing then not just me. Any other experiences?

[charliepapa]

Cuz it's fun

[barney]

Cuz it's fun

mmmmm i dont know about fun!! this was terrifying I have flown over 50 times and love planes and flying but this even was too much for me and this was by far the most scary landing I have ever had people say oh you are going over the top when I describe it but I know from past experience what the plane was doing wasnt the control of the pilot In fact when I got off I said the steward give my compliments to the polit as he did a teriffic job in getting the plan down atall, at one point i thought we would have to go around as we were so close to the sea. anyway we got down but afterwards I could see the fun side of it sure! at time though I was close to soiling myself and I actually shouted out the s word 3 times in which a couple behind me were laughing at all in good fun though!

[c150student]

Oh I love Gibralter, flew there 5 years back and am flying there again in another few weeks.

You have to remember that Gibralter's runway runs right next to urban areas, correction, in an urban area, even crossing a road, and also goes relatively close to the rock. The 2 runway thresholds are surrounded by water. So think, ok, an ILS is good but what if the pilot makes a mistake. In VERY bad conditions, he may well be blown off course and then with no visual reference will become disoritentated, and may then be headed towards the city.

Thats just my ideas. I'd say if the weather was too bad at both airports, and the pilot had no other options it would be his choice as to which airport he would land at if he did not have enough fuel to fly somewhere else entirely. He may be able to make an ILS approach into Gibralter in bad conditions, but if he didnt have enough fuel to go around things could get nasty.

[barney]

Yes Gibraltar is certainly a unique airport yes you are right about the room for error bit thing is even on visual there isnt much room for error here. I am flying there again next year what airport do you fly from and what airline?

[cessnapilot72]

The weather may have sucked, but the visibility wasn't all that bad if they were on a visual approach. And being on an ILS approach isn't going to eliminiate the pitching, rolling, and screaming that you described. It's just a guidance system for when visibility is below minimums.

[Ranger]

Has anyone ehre had the misfortune or indeed the excitement however you view it of landing at this airport in bad weather doing a visual approach. I was told that gibraltar does indeed have an ils so why isnt this used in bad weather? We had to land in very heavy wind and rain at gibraltar a visual approach to runway 9 and well not just me but most people on plane even hardened travellers were gasping and some screamed. The plane pitching and rolling violently. Whats the procedure if the weather is too bad.

I dont how true this statement is but i was told planes fly to malaga if weather at gibraltar is too bad, but what is god forbid if weather is bad at malaga too? then what. I heard a story from the man in checkin that his plane actually had 3 attampts at landing at gibraltar once must me a common thing then not just me. Any other experiences?

First, visuals aren't done in "bad weather". But bad weather is a relative term. I don't know what the requirements are in Gibraltar but in the US we have to have 3 miles visibility to even request a visual approach. You didn't mention which runway has the ILS approach. If runway 9 doesn't have an ILS then the wind that you are complaining about almost certainly forced the crew to use that runway. The big airplanes that I have flown all have had a maximum tail wind component of 10k. Anything beyond that and another runway has to be used. It would be my guess that you were actually doing an ILS or some other instrument approach in marginal visual conditions. The airplane pitching and rolling is a natural reaction to the outside forces acting on it. It can be scarey but is very rarely dangerous. And relax. When the weather starts to go down the tubes we start adding gas and looking at alternate airports that are forecast to have acceptable weather. If that doesn't work, we don't go. And that literally guarantees that there will be a whole bunch of pax yelling, screaming and demanding that the flight go and the weather be damned. And often threatening to sue both the airline and the crew. Go figure.

[barney]

First, visuals aren't done in "bad weather". But bad weather is a relative term. I don't know what the requirements are in Gibraltar but in the US we have to have 3 miles visibility to even request a visual approach. You didn't mention which runway has the ILS approach. If runway 9 doesn't have an ILS then the wind that you are complaining about almost certainly forced the crew to use that runway. The big airplanes that I have flown all have had a maximum tail wind component of 10k. Anything beyond that and another runway has to be used. It would be my guess that you were actually doing an ILS or some other instrument approach in marginal visual conditions. The airplane pitching and rolling is a natural reaction to the outside forces acting on it. It can be scarey but is very rarely dangerous. And relax. When the weather starts to go down the tubes we start adding gas and looking at alternate airports that are forecast to have acceptable weather. If that doesn't work, we don't go. And that literally guarantees that there will be a whole bunch of pax yelling, screaming and demanding that the flight go and the weather be damned. And often threatening to sue both the airline and the crew. Go figure.

I am not sure which runway has the ils approach I assume this to be runway 27 because thats in a more or less clear approach where with runway 9 you have the trickey approach and I did ask someone in the know acording to the rules only experienced captins are allowed to perform the approach we did as its so difficult I remmebr last year doing same approach in totaly calm weather with no wind or cloud and was even then a very sharp bank at last minute before landing in bad weather like we did i think the pilot was too high because he pitched nose down very sharply or would the weather do that?

The weather may have sucked, but the visibility wasn't all that bad if they were on a visual approach. And being on an ILS approach isn't going to eliminiate the pitching, rolling, and screaming that you described. It's just a guidance system for when visibility is below minimums.

Looking back on it the runway would have been in clear it was only extreamly windy and very very low cloud base we didnt leave cloud until about 3 minutes before touchdown still it was scary and it was definitely a manual landing thats for sure because the manovoures the plane was doing was result of polit trying to keep wings level as they were diping way beyond what i would consider average turbelance

[cessnapilot72]

I am not sure which runway has the ils approach I assume this to be runway 27 because thats in a more or less clear approach where with runway 9 you have the trickey approach and I did ask someone in the know acording to the rules only experienced captins are allowed to perform the approach we did as its so difficult

I'm no professional pilot yet, but I am instrument rated, and for the life of me, I can't remember the part about being limited to which approaches I am allowed to do based on their difficulty...

[barney]

I'm no professional pilot yet, but I am instrument rated, and for the life of me, I can't remember the part about being limited to which approaches I am allowed to do based on their difficulty...

I am just saying that the approach we did only experienced polits are alowed to do it thats what I was told

[Ranger]

I am just saying that the approach we did only experienced polits are alowed to do it thats what I was told

Companies do restrict some approaches to captains only. It's a function of things like terrain, prevailing weather and radio navigation aids.

Barney, here's the bottom line. You seem to have gotten yourself all worked up about an approach into Gibrater that you seem to view as being unsafe. Not so. The folks up front are not stupid nor do they have a wish to depart the earth prematurely just to get a bunch of people to their vacation Mecca or business meetings. The crew would not even think about trying an approach that they didn't think was safe.

As I've written many times, I personally have no desire to make Mrs. Ranger a rich widow. And I sure don't want her greedy kids to make out on the deal.

[barney]

Companies do restrict some approaches to captains only. It's a function of things like terrain, prevailing weather and radio navigation aids.

Barney, here's the bottom line. You seem to have gotten yourself all worked up about an approach into Gibrater that you seem to view as being unsafe. Not so. The folks up front are not stupid nor do they have a wish to depart the earth prematurely just to get a bunch of people to their vacation Mecca or business meetings. The crew would not even think about trying an approach that they didn't think was safe.

As I've written many times, I personally have no desire to make Mrs. Ranger a rich widow. And I sure don't want her greedy kids to make out on the deal.

unsafe I dont think it is unsafe its perfectly safe. challanging certainly but unsafe no, if it was unsafe the MOD wouldnt allow jets to land there.

Thing is with Gibraltar because of the rock itself there will a lot of times winds coming down off it. Also because Gibralter is right nest tio atlantic where the warm air of the med meets the cooler air the weather there can change sometimes quite quickly as I have seem before. its this wind i think we got caught in so thats probaby why we had problems just luck of draw i mean last year we had a perfect landing but even if weather is just a little bit bad there it turns a exciting approach into a very challanging approach have you ever flown it the other aspect haat doesnt help is that the runway is so short 6000 feet here is a picture of what I mean with a Airbus approach the plane would be a lower and further to left but would still approach at this angle to runway which makes it very exciting on final, and even more dramatic in bad weather. follow this link and see.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0693299/M/
[Link edit to direct A.net URL]

[Ben]

I know I've mentioned Gibraltar before, but the island/runway does facinate me. Even more so that it was the first place I visited abroad and the first place I flew to, when I was a small child.

Our return flight from Gibraltar was actually cancelled due to a storm and high wind, causing go arounds. We got put up at The Rock Hotel http://www.rockhotelgibraltar.com/ for the night, due to our flight being cancelled. Watching planes trying to land and go around (a lot of them I assume must have been diverted) was apparently quite a site to see (I can't really remember due to being so young but my Dad remembers it well).

Sorry for probably repeating myself (think this has been mentioned before, if not something similar!)

Ahhh, I want to fly there again!!

[barney]

I know I've mentioned Gibraltar before, but the island/runway does facinate me. Even more so that it was the first place I visited abroad and the first place I flew to, when I was a small child.

Our return flight from Gibraltar was actually cancelled due to a storm and high wind, causing go arounds. We got put up at The Rock Hotel http://www.rockhotelgibraltar.com/ for the night, due to our flight being cancelled. Watching planes trying to land and go around (a lot of them I assume must have been diverted) was apparently quite a site to see (I can't really remember due to being so young but my Dad remembers it well).

Sorry for probably repeating myself (think this has been mentioned before, if not something similar!)

Ahhh, I want to fly there again!!

I know BA are not doing direct flights to there anymore from heathrow from october 28th but gatwick and luton do. I am going out again next year cant wait hopefully weather will eb clearer!