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 Why [The] Need [To] Do Steep Turns ? |
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 Feb 10 2010, 11:18 AM
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Cessna 152 Member
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Member No.: 10,666
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Why during basic private pilot training is it necessary
to learn or do steep 60 degree turns ?
It is not something pilots would do ever normally in normal flight, right ?
Is it maybe to help learn in case of emergency evasive maneuver
is needed and have to make such a sharp steep turn to avoid another plane
or object ?
Thanks
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Feb 10 2010, 04:42 PM
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Saab 340 Member
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From: (KADS) Dallas, TX, USA
Member No.: 10,649
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First off, for a private student, only steep turns of 45 degrees are typically taught. For a commercial ticket, you'll be doing them at 55-60 degrees (this is in the US, others may vary).
To quote the FAA:
"The objective of the maneuver is to develop the smoothness, coordination, orientation, division of attention, and control techniques necessary for the execution of maximum performance turns when the airplane is near its performance limits."
AKA, you're learning to manage the load factor of the airplane while performing a tight turn. You have to be able to roll in and out (and transition from one steep turn to another) while maintaining proper coordination, all the while maintaining altitude and keeping the aircraft's speed on target to keep from doing an accelerated stall.
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Feb 10 2010, 05:01 PM
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Cessna 152 Member
Group: Newbies
Posts: 7
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Member No.: 10,666
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I remember when doing my ppl flt training many years ago - I practised
60 steep turns with my cfi
So has the reqmnt or use of this now changed for Prvt pilot license.
I understand it is not required for the practical test.
it did seem useful to get used to controlling the plane - it WAS difficult
thanks
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Feb 10 2010, 07:59 PM
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Saab 340 Member
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From: (KADS) Dallas, TX, USA
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Many CFIs will show a private student 55-60 degree steep turns in addition to the required 45 degree steep turns. As far as I know, the Aug 2002 Private Pilot Single Engine PTS is still the current one, and in it steep turns are a required maneuver for both single engine land and sea. From the PTS: QUOTE Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to steep turns
2. Establishes the manufacturer's recommended airspeed or if one is not stated, a safe airspeed not to exceed VA.
3. Rolls into a coordinated 360* turn; maintains a 45* bank.
4. Performs the task in the opposite direction, as specified by the examiner.
5. Divides attention between airplane control and orientation.
6. Maintains the entry altitude, +/- 100 feet (30 meters), airspeed, +/- 10 knots, bank, +/- 5*, and rolls out on the entry heading, +/- 10*.
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Feb 12 2010, 10:40 AM
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Cessna 152 Member
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So in that Pvt pilot PTS - it looks like it doesnt actually specify anything over 45* degree +/-5* ?
So you wouldnt actually be asked by examiner to do a 60* degree turn for Prvt license ?
Yeh I did a few with my cfi and praticed for turns about a point . Was hard to do - so much going on
and lil fun but kinda scary to feel that sharp angle and G forces untilget lil used to it.
So is that a worldwide accepted practise to make evasive move - to do a sharp steep turn to RIGHT using 60* degrees ?
So everyone is supposed to bear RIGHT and get out of the way (not go left ) ?
(sorta like in car on the road - stay to Right )?
I had not learned or heard that from my cfi in my short training time
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 Feb 12 2010, 12:06 PM
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Space Shuttle Member
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From: EGLL
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QUOTE(jj99 @ Feb 10 2010, 05:18 PM) [snapback]131845[/snapback] Why during basic private pilot training is it necessary
to learn or do steep 60 degree turns ?
It is not something pilots would do ever normally in normal flight, right ?
Is it maybe to help learn in case of emergency evasive maneuver
is needed and have to make such a sharp steep turn to avoid another plane
or object ?
Thanks You goddit in one Blue. To avoid aircraft or obstacles. Its also great fun to do. It also teaches the importance of back pressure during a steep turn and the releasing of that back pressure (on the control column or stick) when rolling out straight and level again, which requires AN APPARENT positive foward stick pressure - compared to the heavy back pressure required to maintain the turn. It also teaches recovery from an exceptionally high nose att and very low airspeed. . . it also teaches recovery from a spiral dive. It also teaches that when the steep turn is in force - i.e., when you are doing it you have to look UP through the windowscreen in order to look out, for UP is verily the direction you are travelling in - albeit at 90 degrees to the horizon. It also teaches directional control with regard to aileron which is good if you get it right and will maintain your line on the horizon. Also, it teaches to fine tune your nose on the horizon, not by aileron (alone) but also/or moreover by the use of RUDDER which is great. It also teaches the accuracy of such a manuevre resulting in a turb bump as you fly through you own slipstream - most excellent. So, in all, it is a very valuable lesson - for all of the above. It could also be seen as the gateway to more advanced aerobatic manuevres. It also makes your passenger girlfriend, love you even more. (If that were ever possible) It is also handy to know that you can do this when opposite direction traffic is filling up your windowscreen. ALSO, as Lear Capt just said, you have to control the aircraft to avoid stalling whilst in the advance (steep) turn. The stall is not very far off when banked at slightly <90 degrees to the horizon - and if you pull (gently but firmly) on the control column then you will see/hear the stall warner sound - which again is cool and no desperately immediate remedy is called for except to release the back-pressure, a bit, until the stall warning stops. Furthermore - the "evaluation process" of the pilot is not an exercise of scientific analysis - one usually evaluates and risk assesses in about 1.75 seconds - there are few situations which crop up, which determine a feverish immediate action - and moreover a calm logical style is employed, bearing in mind of course, that certain situations may require a more immediate input such as that cliff face being only 100 yards in front of you or indeed an imminent collision - just as you would hurry up crossing the road should there be a car up the road, and yet, if the car were due to make contact with you in say, 3 seconds, then you may prefer the option of diving out of the way - like they do in the movies - so it is commonsense really. A common trap that some newie pilots get into is that of urgency and "hurry up - do it fast" attitude, which is quite colourful to watch and is also unnecessary most of the time. Indeed, the consequences of a sudden manuevre at altitude in a big fat jet - would take quite a few minutes to sort out after the manuevre was complete. You may have to go and mop up all the coffee for example - or Downlink your resume` (French y`know) from your laptop. The time for an immediate action is rare because all pilots worth their metal think and plan ahead of the game - otherwise they would keep failing flight exams - so eventually they get the picture and pass the test. So anything untoward is "seen" coming, even if you cannot see it yourself - now, how do you think they do that? X-ray vision? No, listening on the R/T picturing the situation in a mental sky-map - ATC radar and. . . TCAS which is a Traffic warning system which also offers resolution advisories, which you can obey 100% of the time - if you want to live that is. More immediate action would be say if those nice people on the ground had just launched a SAM at you - and hopefully, at that time, you would be flying is a nice hot F-16 or something, more immediate than this could be the same situation - only at low level - in which case one may be tempted to get the ---- outta there, whilst actually doing it. Hope this helps. (Whoop -whoop)
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Feb 12 2010, 07:26 PM
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Saab 340 Member
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From: (KADS) Dallas, TX, USA
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QUOTE(jj99 @ Feb 12 2010, 08:40 AM) [snapback]131853[/snapback] So in that Pvt pilot PTS - it looks like it doesnt actually specify anything over 45* degree +/-5* ?
So you wouldnt actually be asked by examiner to do a 60* degree turn for Prvt license ? Correct, that's the exact text outta the PTS. Bear in mind, a steep turn is defined by the FAA as a turn between 45* and 60*. (Other souces sometimes quote anything greater than 30*) Many examiners will slightly vary requirements for their checkrides. However, if an examiner asked me as a student pilot on a private pilot checkride to perform a 60* steep turn, I would politely refuse and remind him the standard which has been practiced is only 45*. QUOTE Yeh I did a few with my cfi and praticed for turns about a point . Turns around a point are a seperate maneuver and at least we always taught them to a maximum of 45* bank. I guess you could teach them to a student with up to 60* of bank, but then you're talking a ridiculously tight turn that really takes away from the maneuver. I preferred to make a student fly a larger circle for turns around a point, keeping their maximum bank at 30* or less, so they would have more time to have the wind affect their ground track and learn from it. QUOTE So everyone is supposed to bear RIGHT and get out of the way (not go left ) ?
(sorta like in car on the road - stay to Right )? The English might have a problem with that.  We learn right of way rules for VFR flying in basic private ground, but I don't recall ever learning or teaching that in an emergency situation you broke off to a paticular direction. I think every emergency situation (including close encounters) has to be analyzed and responded to in it's own way based on the circumstances.
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Feb 13 2010, 01:16 AM
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Cessna 152 Member
Group: Newbies
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Member No.: 10,666
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The English might have a problem with that. Ohh yehh forgot about those blokes over there - left side of road. I flew so long ago with cfi - now think of it ... turns about point were I think more like 30* and cfi showed/had me doa few 60* steep ones and yehhh the 360* turn takesw no time at all and lots of things are happening real fast even in a warrior Yeh I remember now my cfi never said anything about just stay or go immed right but have to deal with anything that comes up as it is at time. --- How bout when ATC says "make Immediate blahblah (turn or etc ) like when in pattern in process of landing let's say at controlled field . How fast do you respond or put chnage into the controls when ATC says Immediate ? Is it instantaneous wihout looking or thinking or do you give a second or two to think what/why is ATC saying that to me ? Or even ask them to repeat it in case you misheard and thought was for someone else ? How do prof pilots handle the word "Immediate" ?? Thanks
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 Feb 13 2010, 12:04 PM
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Space Shuttle Member
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QUOTE(jj99 @ Feb 13 2010, 07:16 AM) [snapback]131857[/snapback] The English might have a problem with that. Ohh yehh forgot about those blokes over there - left side of road. I flew so long ago with cfi - now think of it ... turns about point were I think more like 30* and cfi showed/had me doa few 60* steep ones and yehhh the 360* turn takesw no time at all and lots of things are happening real fast even in a warrior Yeh I remember now my cfi never said anything about just stay or go immed right but have to deal with anything that comes up as it is at time. --- How bout when ATC says "make Immediate blahblah (turn or etc ) like when in pattern in process of landing let's say at controlled field . How fast do you respond or put chnage into the controls when ATC says Immediate ? Is it instantaneous wihout looking or thinking or do you give a second or two to think what/why is ATC saying that to me ? Or even ask them to repeat it in case you misheard and thought was for someone else ? How do prof pilots handle the word "Immediate" ?? Thanks Well, you can evaluate - BANG!!!!! Or you could say "holy ----!!!" BANG!!!! Or you can get on with it and save everybody`s life on the flight. Wheeee!! Usually, in the case of force majure (French you know. . ) the controller would say make immediate right turn NOW! or Turn Right Now! which would leave little doubt as to the urgency of the situation. Immediate Takeoff for example simply means that only if you are 100% good and ready and completely happy with the situation and totally and absolutely settled in and ready to go - then respond to the question "are you ready for an immediate. . . ?" Otherwise one would say "Negative" = No - Need - To - Rush. In emergencies - there is rarely any need to rush. Unless of course the end of the valley you are flying in has, indeed, arrived. . .then you would just enter an immediate Chandelle or Stall Turn without stalling or something immediately nice, in order to be pointing the other way (180 degrees) - as soon as physically possible, plus one or two others which may come quickly to mind and could well make you drop your packet of potato chips. . but then, life is hard sometimes. In response to how fast one inputs change into the controls. . . well, it is the amount of deflection of the flying controls which would determine the rate of roll, bank, pitch, etc. Not the speed of the input.
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Feb 13 2010, 03:41 PM
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Saab 340 Member
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From: (KADS) Dallas, TX, USA
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QUOTE(Fast Jet @ Feb 13 2010, 10:04 AM) [snapback]131860[/snapback] Well, you can evaluate - BANG!!!!!
Or you could say "holy ----!!!" BANG!!!!
Or you can get on with it and save everybody`s life on the flight. Wheeee!! Reminds me of a GPWS flow chart I once saw. "Push thrust levers into EICAS, squash your beer gut with the control column, and try not to panic." "How fast did you react?" "slowly ---> HIT GROUND" "quickly ---> HIT GROUND" "fairly quickly ---> HIT GROUND" "like flamin' lightning ---> Situation Over"
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Apr 5 2010, 09:51 PM
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Boeing 737 Member
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QUOTE(jj99 @ Feb 10 2010, 08:18 AM) [snapback]131845[/snapback] Why during basic private pilot training is it necessary
to learn or do steep 60 degree turns ? Steep turns is a manuver that really doesn't have an obvious use in the real world. However it does teach you something vitally important, how to control the airplane. Just like playing scales in music, the basic fundamentals are vital to the more advanced skills. When I am flying with a pilot on a local checkout the first thing I ask to see is a steep turn. It shows me really quick how good a pilot you are. If you are flying the plane, or just along for the ride. The same argument holds for the commercial manuvers, chandels and lazy eights. No, you're never going to do them in an airplane with bassengers, but that basic skill of aircraft control needs to be second nature.
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