Let's Get It Logged?, X-Country Time - Not making sense!! Options

[BMeister]

Hi, short and sweet.

I have my private, in single engine land, I've taken IFR and CFII written...

so I can qualify to take the checkride.. what counts as cross country??

I want hard facts here!!

do I have to make a landing or shoot some approaches?
does it have to be a certain distance?

Regards.
B

[Piltdown Man]

Typing "FAA Cross-country" into the search box of a well known search engine came up with this answer. I'm not trying to be horrible, but couldn't you have done this? This interweb thingy can answer lots questions - if you ask it! Shame on you!

PM

[rjb4000]

You're a fully licensed certificated FAA pilot and you don't know what counts as one of the requirements for you becoming a licensed pilot?

Oh dear.

[Ranger]

Dig up a copy of the FARs and take a look in Part 61. There are a couple of different definitions of "cross country" for you to consider depending on what you're doing.

[c150student]

You're a fully licensed certificated FAA pilot and you don't know what counts as one of the requirements for you becoming a licensed pilot?

Oh dear.

Is that constructive, and does that answer his question?

Better that he asks than just remains unsure. And he can ask on here because it is an internet forum, where we are meant to discuss. Most things can be found out online elsewhere, why not just get rid of the ask-a-pilot section altogether?

[BMeister]

C150, Thank you sir,

shame on those for being so rude, I mean give me a break,

Firstly I did search online for Logging Cross country time, I didn't find what I was looking for, and thought I would post it in here, because im sure most have come across this topic for their IFR, secondly I did a search in these forums and found a post that didn't answer my question,

and for those (RJB4000) who doubt my ability to be a pilot because I dont know the answer to a question I posted, swivel!, I asked a question in 'ask a pilot forum' and your post show your ability to be quite arrogant, for what reason? Help me out dont shoot me down? or just dont post?

Im here to learn, and then pass this info on to others...

this is actually a valid question with confusion, for which I later found out

PS. I also read the FAR/AIM before posting in section of 61.1 that too isn't straight forward

[Ranger]

Sorry, I can't see how the FAR's could be any easier to understand. They DEFINE the term.

If I was your instructor and you came to me with that question I'd say two things to you. 1) You should probably already be able to partially understand what the definition of a cross country is, at least as it applies to whatever certificates/ratings that you hold, and 2) go figure it out for yourself and then come back and explain it to me. That's what pilots do when they need answers. As you crawl up the food chain it gets harder and harder to find people who are sympathetic when you ask things that you should know. If that offends you, go to truck driver school.

[c150student]

So being a good pilot involves keeping quiet about stuff you're not sure about, and not asking questions, through fear of getting judged by other pilots? Im sure accidents have resulted from just this sort of thing.

If so, I think Id rather go to truck driver school myself.

[bernoulli]

Hi, short and sweet.

I have my private, in single engine land, I've taken IFR and CFII written...

so I can qualify to take the checkride.. what counts as cross country??

I want hard facts here!!

do I have to make a landing or shoot some approaches?
does it have to be a certain distance?

Regards.
B

Here's the whole enchilada:

(3) Cross-country time means:

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) through (b)(3)(vi) of this section, time acquired during flight:

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;

(B) Conducted in an aircraft;

© That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and

(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under §61.101 ©, time acquired during a flight:

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

© That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(iii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate (except for powered parachute privileges), time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that:

(A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(B) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(iv) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate with powered parachute privileges or a private pilot certificate with a powered parachute category rating, time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that:

(A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 15 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(B) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(v) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for any pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category rating or an instrument-helicopter rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges, in a rotorcraft, under §61.101©, time acquired during a flight:

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

© That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight:

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

© That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

(vii) For a military pilot who qualifies for a commercial pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating) under §61.73 of this part, time acquired during a flight:

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

© That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

Essentially, it just means that your departure and arrival points must be at least 50 nautical miles apart while not being shot from a cannon. It also, interestingly, includes language which allows Rutan and Yeager the ability to log their non-stop around the world flight as cross-country since they departed and arrived at the same airport (Edwards AFB) in 1986.

[27driver]

So being a good pilot involves keeping quiet about stuff you're not sure about, and not asking questions, through fear of getting judged by other pilots? Im sure accidents have resulted from just this sort of thing.

If so, I think Id rather go to truck driver school myself.

Dude...c150...you've been here long enough to know better than to say something like that...seriously.

Part of being a pilot is knowing information as it pertains to your job/career/pastime. Part of THAT is knowing where to find that information. If you are a pilot, you know that all the info needed to conduct flight ops can be readily found in your FAR-AIM...the "bible" for pilots. If you are a pilot and you have any question, you should look there before asking something as mundane as "what is a cross-country". That's like a doctor asking "what is an appendix". As a doctor, it's assumed that you would know...so it is with pilots. As a SEL pilot, one should know what is involved in a cross-country.

Ranger is totally correct, once again. As your instructor, I would realize that I have failed to provide you with adequate preparation for what you are doing. There is no way you should be able to operate an aircraft without the proscribed knowledge of your rating, and that most certainly includes basic definitions. You want a break for not knowing what you should know to fly, then go be a truck driver. Otherwise suck it up, man up, and go find the info...it's right there in the FAR-AIM.

It's hard to believe that someone could have done their PPL-SEL, along with the IFR and CFII written and never come across the question of what constitutes a cross-country. What kind of instruction have you been doing? If you can't seem to find info in the FAR-AIM, perhaps you should spend some more time doing some reading and research in it. Otherwise, you might find your time as a pilot to be terribly short.

[c150student]

I understand that, and agree to a point, but still think that someone should feel they can ask a question without getting grief for it.

I think the ability to be a good 'commander' of an aircraft lies as much in your ability to admit when you need help, as just knowing everything does. Perhaps he should have known that information. Yes, the information is obviously relatively easy to obtain. But I still dont believe that pride is a characteristic that we should be trying to instill in pilots.

[Ranger]

I understand that, and agree to a point, but still think that someone should feel they can ask a question without getting grief for it.

I think the ability to be a good 'commander' of an aircraft lies as much in your ability to admit when you need help, as just knowing everything does. Perhaps he should have known that information. Yes, the information is obviously relatively easy to obtain. But I still dont believe that pride is a characteristic that we should be trying to instill in pilots.

Don't mix the LEARNING phase with the APPLICATION phase. Let me give you a practical example.

You're taking a math class at school. At the beginning phase (learning) your instructor teaches you the basics of the math discipline that you're learning. At the end of the term those basics have become basic to what you are doing (application). They are fundamental. What would you think your instructor would say if you asked him/her a question regarding those basics? I know what I would say. Go home, open a book, read and figure it out. You should, by this time, have moved past the basics.

Here's what I think is going on. I think the original question was asked because it was either easier to ask it here than it was to make the effort to do the research to find the answer or because Bmeister got frustrated trying to figure it out. I have two kids (grown men now) who are pilots and they learned a long time ago not to ask me questions that they should know. I tell them what I said in an earlier post. Find the answer and let me know what you think it is. The other problem is that I just might not know the right answer.

[c150student]

Fair enough

I still maintain what I said earlier, but in this situation it perhaps it would have been more prudent to use a book first. Still, this is an internet forum; if the question was too easy, it would have been easier to ignore it altogether

[BMeister]

Yea Thanks for all your comments, I actually came onto the forums because someone told me mis leading information, so therefore I thought I would ask all you talented educated people. I've had no reason to, or had the need to know what is considered a cross country flight? Not come across it in the Private, IFR or CFII written, I was unsure.

I've been doing quite abit of studying using King School Media software.

But I've now found that information out, I was told 15NM distance is cross country and 50NM is cross country

so yes I could of researched it fully so I didnt look like an idiot, but I didnt think you would give me such grief for it.

infuture I wont bother ;)

have a great week.

Thank you.

[Piltdown Man]

Which bit won't you bother with - the research or the question? You'll find that avation is rather unique in so much that wretched legislators got to it before it was fully developed. Not so long ago, you had to have access to a huge stack of books to get the definative answer to any legal type question. Now your answer is just a few clicks of a rodent away. The suggestion is be fair to those whom you ask for help and give them respect. Do your bit and everybody else will do theirs - just like dealing with people face-to-face really.

PM

[Ranger]

Yea Thanks for all your comments, I actually came onto the forums because someone told me mis leading information, so therefore I thought I would ask all you talented educated people. I've had no reason to, or had the need to know what is considered a cross country flight? Not come across it in the Private, IFR or CFII written, I was unsure.

I've been doing quite abit of studying using King School Media software.

But I've now found that information out, I was told 15NM distance is cross country and 50NM is cross country

so yes I could of researched it fully so I didnt look like an idiot, but I didnt think you would give me such grief for it.

infuture I wont bother ;)

have a great week.

Thank you.

You're taking this far too personally. If you review the replies to your original question most are critical of your level of knowledge, not your intelligence. You didn't know something that I, for one, thought that you should have known. The challenge was to figure it out for yourself. It's in the FARs, for cryin' out loud.

I've been an instructor in one capacity or another for pretty much my whole career. I'm telling you right now that if you can't take some criticism when you have a gap in your knowledge, you're going to have a tough time if you make it to the big leagues. At the highest level they expect you to come prepackaged and to have a good, working understanding of what you need to know. If you don't come prepared you'll find yourself scrambling to learn. Then, if you still show weakness, they very quickly weed you out. It's not personal. It's just the way it is.

[Becky_KSTS]

Okay, I am kinda chicken to put this one here but just have to. I have a question. I have been reading this thread and have wondered about cross country log time myself. I am just a private pilot so I am hitting at this from my perspective. The FARS can be a bit confusing due to the language (yes I do speak English). Cross country time can be logged if you fly to another aiport and land (even if is only 18 miles away).

However, if you are going for your instrument rating for example, then Cross country time can only be logged as cross country from one point to the other at or more than 50 nautical miles. Assuming that I am understanding the FARS correctly, why the blazes are there two different kinds of cross country ways to log time and what purpose does it serve?

[AName]

Assuming that I am understanding the FARS correctly, why the blazes are there two different kinds of cross country ways to log time and what purpose does it serve?

This is how I see it (feel free to correct me). I think it has to do with the purpose of the flight. When training with x-country, you need to get the whole flying away from home experience and all that's associated with it, like dealing with new airspace, navigation, flight plans, radio services and all that good stuff. You wont get this all if you blast off then buzz over to a field 5 miles away. So when you are building time to meet the requirements for a rating, the FARs specify a 50nm straight line distance which offers the whole x-country experience.

So yes, the 18 mile flight does satisfy one section of the x-country definitions, but it does not satisfy the requirements in the section for building x-country time required for a rating. You can log it as x-country, but in your case of instrument training (assuming part 61), it can't be used to meet the 50 hour PIC x-country time requirement, or any other x-country time required for PPL, CPL or IR (with exception to rotorcraft and powered parachute ratings).

[AirRabbit]

Hey Guys:

OK. Here comes the rant ….

Ranger is correct. When you get to the point of getting ready to take a check ride with an examiner, or the bad ole FAA, you need to know a few things. And one of the things that you can know, or at least be familiar with what is said, is the regulation that governs what you’re going to do. Like Becky said – sometimes the rule is hard to understand – not hard to read; just hard to understand. However, the rule usually means just what it says – unfortunately, you have to go back and read the whole thought, which means you may have to go back and read from several paragraphs above where you are reading at the moment, to get the whole context of the thought. It’s not hard; it just seems hard. What I’ve recommended is to go back and copy down the thought that was started, and then continue copying the thought as it progresses downward. Eventually, you’ll get to the whole thought you were interested in following. The secret to understanding the regulations is don’t give up, don’t get intimidated by the language (it’s only English), and make sure you follow the thought.

For the purposes of the US regulations, “Cross country” time depends on what portion of the rules you are attempting to meet. Here is the text out of § 61.1 which is titled “Applicability and definitions;” and subparagraph (b) starts out, “For the purposes of this part:” and then the first two paragraphs (1) and (2) define “Aeronautical experience” and “Authorized instructor”

Paragraph (3) is what you’re interested in; “Cross-country time means—” You’ll note that there are seven (7) parts under paragraph (3). Those parts are identified by small roman numerals (i), (ii), (iii), (iv), (v), (vi) and (vii), and note that the language at each roman numeral, after (i), starts off with “For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements…” – except for (vii) and it simply starts of with “For a military pilot…”

So, here, as I said, “after paragraph (i)” – well, why do I say after that paragraph? Because that paragraph says “Except as provided in paragraphs …” and then it lists (ii) through (vi). So you have to go down the list of small roman numerals to find out what paragraph pertains to what you’re going to do, and place that after the introductory phrase “Cross-country time means …”

When you have determined what paragraph (or paragraphs) apply to what you want to do, then you’ll know how to understand what “cross-country” means. And, to be a well rounded aviator, it would serve you well to know what that term means in all of its applications.

So, starting with paragraph (3) ... "Cross-country means --"

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) through (b)(3)(vi) of this section, time acquired during flight—
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C ) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under §61.101 ©, time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C ) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(iii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate (except for powered parachute privileges), time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that—
(A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(B) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(iv) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate with powered parachute privileges or a private pilot certificate with a powered parachute category rating, time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that—
(A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 15 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(B) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(v) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for any pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category rating or an instrument-helicopter rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges, in a rotorcraft, under §61.101©, time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C ) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C ) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

(vii) For a military pilot who qualifies for a commercial pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating) under §61.73 of this part, time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C ) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

OK. Rant over. You can relax now.