Mayday Panpan, The difference Options

[c150student]

I understand that MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY, when called over the radio, means that you have an emergency, whilst PANPAN, PANPAN, PANPAN means an urgency. However, what situations would you use each for?

For example, if the engine caught fire and stopped working you'd call MAYDAY. But if the engine was only delivering half the power, do you also call MAYDAY, or is an urgency instead, required a PANPAN? At what point does an urgency become an emergency?

If I'm flying along and my passenger has a heart attack, do I call MAYDAY? Or is that a PANPAN?

Basically, where do you draw the lines?

I ran a search but it didnt turn up any results, so I hope this hasnt been posted before

Thanks in advance

[rjb4000]

If I'm flying along and my passenger has a heart attack, do I call MAYDAY? Or is that a PANPAN?

You don't call either. This isn't the 1950's anymore, and the controllers you are talking to are real people and will understand an emergent situation. If you say N12345 our passenger just had a heart attack, we're declaring an emergency" they'll know you know what you're doing. If you start yelling on their freq "N12345 MAYDAY MAYDAY MY PASSENGER JUST DIED" well, you know.. Just be human.

[c150student]

Haha ok fair point, I wasnt sure. I havent got to exercise 17 :'What to do if your passenger dies in the cockpit' yet.

[talldude]

I base how I announce an emergency or urgent situation on the conditions I encounter. Pretty much common sense, If I feel that my life is in a real threatening situation then I will use mayday, other than that, I have time to make some explaining. Just remember Aviate/Navigate/Communicate!

"MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY....I lost one of my wings and I'm going down, tell my family I love them"

"MAYDAY MAYDA MAYDAY...I have an engine failure, about 15 miles south of Thief River requesting assistance" (single engine airplane at night)

"MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY" Anything during single engine IMC

"Center...I'm declaring an emergency I just lost my engine, requesting assistance 5 miles south of Thief River landing off field" (single engine daytime)

"Center....I'm declaring a medical emergency requesting medical personnel upon landing"

"PAN PAN PAN"....screw it don't even bother

When your not talking to or listening to a center, that's when it can get interesting. Either transmit into the blind on 121.5, call up a FSS, or a tower nearby.

[galaxy]

Pan-pan (from the French: panne - a breakdown) indicates an urgent situation of a lower order than a "grave and imminent threat requiring immediate assistance", such as a mechanical breakdown or a medical problem. The suffix medico is added to indicate a medical problem (Pan-Pan medico, repeated three times).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayday_%28dis...gnal%29#Pan-pan

A call of pan-pan means that there is an emergency on board a boat, ship, aircraft or other vehicle but that, for the time being at least, there is no immediate danger to anyone's life or to the vessel itself. This is distinct from a Mayday call, which means that there is imminent danger to life or to the continued viability of the vessel itself. Thus 'pan-pan' will inform potential rescuers (including emergency services and other craft in the area) that a safety problem exists whereas 'mayday' will call upon them to drop all other activities and immediately instigate a rescue attempt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-pan

[nameless]

Wouldn't a Pan-pan be used if you were running low on fuel and not near an airport, and then when you lose an engine it becomes a maday emergency (probally worded that really bad)

[mcollyer]

I understand that MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY, when called over the radio, means that you have an emergency, whilst PANPAN, PANPAN, PANPAN means an urgency. However, what situations would you use each for?

For example, if the engine caught fire and stopped working you'd call MAYDAY. But if the engine was only delivering half the power, do you also call MAYDAY, or is an urgency instead, required a PANPAN? At what point does an urgency become an emergency?

If I'm flying along and my passenger has a heart attack, do I call MAYDAY? Or is that a PANPAN?

Basically, where do you draw the lines?

I ran a search but it didnt turn up any results, so I hope this hasnt been posted before

Thanks in advance

Agree that both, "Mayday" and much less common "Pan" don't convey any useful information but to grab ATC immediate attention. If I'm not wrong, last time the "Pan" call was used was with the Sept 2 1998 Swissair MD-11 FT111 that crashed on Peggy's Cove, Nova Scotia (Canada).

[QM = Moncton Center ]
SWR111? 1:14:07.9 [Unintelligible squelch covered by United 920]
QM 1:14:12.0 United nine two zero heavy Moncton Center good evening occasional light turbulence reported at all levels. Other aircraft calling say again.
SWR111 1:14:18.0 Swissair one eleven heavy is declaring Pan Pan Pan. We have uh smoke in the cockpit, uh request (deviate), immediate return uh to a convenient place, I guess uh Boston ***.
QM 1:14:33.2 Swissair one eleven roger ... turn right proceed ...uh ... you say to Boston you want to go?

[rjb4000]

If I'm not wrong, last time the "Pan" call was used was with the Sept 2 1998 Swissair MD-11

I heard some Air France pilot use it at Logan once because they had a gear anomaly on landing, they landed and it turned out ok so it was never reported. Interesting to listen to though.

[Swagman1]

If I'm not wrong, last time the "Pan" call was used was with the Sept 2 1998 Swissair MD-11 FT111 that crashed on Peggy's Cove, Nova Scotia (Canada).

Last time where? An Aussie broadcast a pan pan just the other week with smoke in the cockpit

[c150student]

we practise panpans here, calling up 121.5 and calling 'practise pan' 3 times. I'm sure we still use it if we have to practise it. No practise MAYDAY though

[Ranger]

You don't call either. This isn't the 1950's anymore, and the controllers you are talking to are real people and will understand an emergent situation. If you say N12345 our passenger just had a heart attack, we're declaring an emergency" they'll know you know what you're doing. If you start yelling on their freq "N12345 MAYDAY MAYDAY MY PASSENGER JUST DIED" well, you know.. Just be human.

Where in the world did you get that idea? This isn't the '50's? First of all, a pax heart attack is NOT an emergency. An emergency involves the direct and immediate threat related to the safety of flight.

There are a lot of ways to get the message across when your a/c is in immediate danger. And one of the very best is to start saying "Mayday, mayday,mayday". I can't think of a simpler way of getting the urgency of your situation across to a controller than making that statement. I can guarantee you that I will not hesitate to either direct the F/O to make the transmission or do it myself.

[rjb4000]

Where in the world did you get that idea? This isn't the '50's? First of all, a pax heart attack is NOT an emergency. An emergency involves the direct and immediate threat related to the safety of flight.

There are a lot of ways to get the message across when your a/c is in immediate danger. And one of the very best is to start saying "Mayday, mayday,mayday". I can't think of a simpler way of getting the urgency of your situation across to a controller than making that statement. I can guarantee you that I will not hesitate to either direct the F/O to make the transmission or do it myself.

I see what you are saying, but tell me the difference between saying "American 123 engine failure, declaring emergency" and saying "mayday mayday mayday American 123 engine failure, declaring emergency"
Well, besides the few extra seconds it takes to get the point across

[c150student]

it sounds cooler? lol

And also it may attract the attention of other pilots more, who may be able to help in locating the downed aircraft if the rescue services have difficulty. If I hear the message 'Gof Mike Zulu, engine failure, declaring emergency' whilst reading my map and talking to my instructor, I'm less likely to hear it than if they say 'MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY, Golf Mike Zulu, have an engine failure'. It just sounds more urgent.

[rjb4000]

whilst reading my map and talking to my instructor, I'm less likely to hear it than if they say 'MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY, Golf Mike Zulu, have an engine failure'. It just sounds more urgent.

I don't give two @#$%^s whether or not you hear it if I'm talking to air traffic control. I care that they hear it, and that they react quickly to it. If I'm flying a pattern at an uncontrolled field, that's a very different story, but when I'm talking to ATC, the only reason I would make the call is for them to hear it. Now if you happen to be flying out near me and ATC requests your assistance in locating me, so be it. I'm not going to be bothered with trying to have a conversation with you while I'm falling to the earth at minimum trim glide speed.

[talldude]

it sounds cooler? lol

And also it may attract the attention of other pilots more, who may be able to help in locating the downed aircraft if the rescue services have difficulty. If I hear the message 'Gof Mike Zulu, engine failure, declaring emergency' whilst reading my map and talking to my instructor, I'm less likely to hear it than if they say 'MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY, Golf Mike Zulu, have an engine failure'. It just sounds more urgent.

You can't be less likely to hear that, anything about emergencies heard over the radio is important and in some cases demand radio silence between ATC and the distressed aircraft so that's all you'll hear.

Wouldn't a Pan-pan be used if you were running low on fuel and not near an airport, and then when you lose an engine it becomes a maday emergency (probally worded that really bad)

Not really, here in the US we use the statement, "minimum fuel". Or is that an IFR thing? Oh well, it basically means your requesting priority handling.

[rjb4000]

Not really, here in the US we use the statement, "minimum fuel". Or is that an IFR thing? Oh well, it basically means your requesting priority handling.

I doubt it makes a terrible amount of difference.. If you're a cessna 172 putting along VFR in class E with flight following and say that you have no fuel, you can be sure that ATC will do their best to help you out.

[Tpattyii]

I've had one emergency and one "situation" in the last two weeks so I guess Ill throw my .02 in.

The first was shortly after takeoff. We had smoke in the cabin and could not identify the source. Shortly after that we had a pitch trim run away. It looked as things could get pretty bad pretty quick so the Capt. told me to declare an emergency. I simply said, "xxx246 declaring an emergency we are going back to Battle Creek now." The controller said, "Ok just let me know which way you are turning." Not tool long after that we got the trim problem figured out and were able to maintain control of the aircraft. Shortly after that I had the time to tell ATC that we were requesting fire support, gave them a brief description of the problem and told them what runway we were going to land on. It was pretty cut and dry as far as the communications go.

A few days after the above happened I was enroute from Toluca, Mx to El Paso, Texas and flight controls all but locked up. We were at FL340 and more or less had no roll control of the aircraft. We suspected that water from the storm we just flew through at a lower altitude had frozen to the control cables causing them to have little to no control of the ailerons. We went on with the flight using electric trim to control the bank of the aircraft. Once we were handed off to El Paso's approach controller I told the controller I had a situation that I need to make him aware of. I simply told him that we had a reduction in the control effectiveness of the aircraft and requested to be placed on final no less than 10 miles from the airport. He did so and everything was fine.

My point is...Controllers are people...so in any sort of emergency you just talk to them and let them know what the problem is. If the crew sees fit to declare an emergency then declare an emergency. If its a situation where you likely wont burn a hole in the ground, but still need to get on the ground quick...then advise them of what is going on and let them know what you are going to do. Its a lot more simple that most people make it.

PS: People say that they hesitate to declare an emergency because of all the paper work. This is a horrible way of thinking. If you have to get on the ground or are unsure of being able to continue to safely operate the aircraft...declare an emergency. You can always go back and cancel an emergency if you need to.

Tp2

[c150student]

I don't give two @#$%^s whether or not you hear it if I'm talking to air traffic control. I care that they hear it, and that they react quickly to it. If I'm flying a pattern at an uncontrolled field, that's a very different story, but when I'm talking to ATC, the only reason I would make the call is for them to hear it. Now if you happen to be flying out near me and ATC requests your assistance in locating me, so be it. I'm not going to be bothered with trying to have a conversation with you while I'm falling to the earth at minimum trim glide speed.

Fair enough, but what if they dont hear it, for any reason? I can relay it back to them or tell them that you had an emergency, in case you couldnt call up again. I'm not saying you would be aiming the message at me, but it would mean more people would be made aware and so then people would automatically create radio silence for you, so long as they heard your transmission, which, as I said, is surely more likely to be heard if you say MAYDAY? They could also keep a lookput for you, to aid ATC in finding you by giving a more accurate location.

And OK, so if you just need to tell the controllers your situation, fine, but whats the point of a MAYDAY in the first place? Why are we taught it?

[rjb4000]

And OK, so if you just need to tell the controllers your situation, fine, but whats the point of a MAYDAY in the first place? Why are we taught it?

You're told what it means because you still need to know what to think when you hear it.. I mean, it is still a standard term for immediate life threatening danger, and if you're not in contact with a controller, mayday is a good way to get that sleepy FSS controller on 121.5 to wake up and listen to you.

[Eric86GT]

I've had one emergency and one "situation" in the last two weeks so I guess Ill throw my .02 in.

The first was shortly after takeoff. We had smoke in the cabin and could not identify the source. Shortly after that we had a pitch trim run away. It looked as things could get pretty bad pretty quick so the Capt. told me to declare an emergency. I simply said, "xxx246 declaring an emergency we are going back to Battle Creek now." The controller said, "Ok just let me know which way you are turning." Not tool long after that we got the trim problem figured out and were able to maintain control of the aircraft. Shortly after that I had the time to tell ATC that we were requesting fire support, gave them a brief description of the problem and told them what runway we were going to land on. It was pretty cut and dry as far as the communications go.

Tpattyii,
When were you at KBTL? That's my home base. Were you leaving Duncan?



I had a situation a few months back. We had just levelled off from the climb and started leaning the mixture and immediately the cabin started to smell of burning hair. I told my student to turn back to KBTL and I informed tower of our situation and that we were going back. Tower asked some questions about the smell and asked if there was visible smoke in the cabin. There wasn't, but I replied that the smell was strong and not going away. He then asked if I wanted fire crews waiting on the ground. I replied that I did. I didn't exactly say I was declaring an emergency, but as soon as I agreed to the fire support it became one. Tower closed down the airport to all other traffic.

It turned out that a bird got lodged next to the exhaust shroud/heat muff and burned.