Flight Currency Options

[BMeister]

Hi Everyone,

By now you've probably noticed I like to ask a lot of questions and most of you will probably say
'why dont you look it up in the FAR/AIM like the rest of us' ..well Im acquiring that language slowly to understand it all!


IFR Currency question:

You have 12 months from the date of IFR checkride or Proficency check to maintain stay IFR Current

First 6 months you must make 6 approaches, tracking / intercepting radials and holding the the use of navigation systems

if you dont complete this within the first 6 months of your IFR checkride, you are no longer allowed to fly IFR or file an IFR flight plan and you would need within the second 6 months to take a safety pilot with you under VFR conditions while your under the hood to do the above^ that you didn't do within the first 6 months..

my quesiton is: after you complete the approaches within the first 6 months by yourself either by actual or VFR practice approaches when does that time reset agian, after you completed the last 6th approach or after the first 6 months started from time of the checkride.


if your a CFI can you count your students IFR approaches as your own which counts towards your own IFR currency, same question applies to landings within 90 days to carry passengers can you count your students landings as your own.

also if you have a Multi engine rating do you have to do 6 approaches in a SEL and then in a MEL?


So many questions!, but hey atleast Im learning

[USMCmech]

Count back 6 aproaches and a hold somewhere, simulated or actual. If that happened in the past 6 months, then you're good to go.

A CFI or CFII may log their student's aproaches IF they went into actuall IMC between the FAF and the runway.

Single or twin dosen't matter.

[BMeister]

Count back 6 aproaches and a hold somewhere, simulated or actual. If that happened in the past 6 months, then you're good to go.

A CFI or CFII may log their student's aproaches IF they went into actuall IMC between the FAF and the runway.

Single or twin dosen't matter.

ohh.. you can only count your students actual!? how about their simulated approaches, you didn't say so, so Im guessing not!?

[USMCmech]

Also, those six aproaches and a hold may be done in a "flight training device" or a sim.

Even though an IPC only requires 3 aproaches, completing an IPC with a CFII resets the clock on your currency.

[BMeister]

Can you fly those approaches in VFR conditions by yourself? and is that valid?

[USMCmech]

Can you fly those approaches in VFR conditions by yourself? and is that valid?

No, those apraches must be under "actual or simulated conditions".

[BMeister]

No, those apraches must be under "actual or simulated conditions".

wow I must get more thick, you can legally log an approach in your log book under VMC conditions though right? even though you can obviously not coundt that towards your currency,

just wonder if it's allowed to start at your instrustments while you flyin a practice approach in VMC with no safety pilot.

PS. regarding logging your students approaches while you teach them as a CFII counts towards your own currency but you stated that is valid in Actual conditions, fat chance of that in CA, so if they are under the hood and your teaching them their IFR rating and they are under the hood during approaches, you can or can not count that as your own!

thanks USMECH :D

[USMCmech]

you can legally log an approach in your log book under VMC conditions though right? even though you can obviously not coundt that towards your currency,

Yes, in theory you could. However I have no idea why you would want to.

What is the puropse of a logbook? To record past flights so you can show that you have meet some experiance and/or currency requirement under the FARs or potential employers. You can write anything you want in your logbook, includeing airline flights you rode in the cabin, poetry, cake recipies ect. However few (if any) pilots log flights that do not legally count under PIC, SIC, instrument currency, ect. If you have a bunch of extra entries that don't count fo anything then you will have to go bakc and audit your book to speerate what is legit and what is not. Since my logbooks cover almost 2 decades of flying, I have no clue what I was doing on some flight 12 years ago, but I know that I can count it since I never wrote any entry that was not PIC time.


OTOH, some truely memorable flights/events will ocasionally find their way into a pilots logbook wether they count toward TT or not.. I met a CFI who gave a flight review to Neil Armstrong. He autographed the CFIs logbook on the line under that flight. Another pilot recorded his first flight as a pasneger with his son as PIC.

[BMeister]

that's awesome, wow can you imagine Neil Armstrong

that's amazing,

the reason why I asked above it because when I was learning my IFR rating, I didn't have a safety pilot and I flew to an airport in VFR conditions and decided to try the approach there, by myself with no hood obviously in VMC

that's why it ended up in my logbook, probably shouldn't of logged it, as it was pointless but It's several pages in the past, dont want to edit all my figures!!

Hey USmech what flight tickets do you have, been in the airlines? Instruct?

Many thanks, for all the help you give me and suggest, Im really greatful

Reason for edit: Removed quote

[Harmattan96]

On the same topic:
You may not log your students landing as your own!!!

14 CFR § 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.

(a) General experience.

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers or of an aircraft certificated for more than one pilot flight crewmember unless that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days, and—

(i) The person acted as the sole manipulator of the flight controls; and

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required), and, if the aircraft to be flown is an airplane with a tailwheel, the takeoffs and landings must have been made to a full stop in an airplane with a tailwheel.

(2) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this section, a person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft under day VFR or day IFR, provided no persons or property are carried on board the aircraft, other than those necessary for the conduct of the flight.



This means that your student logs the landing when he is the only person touching the controls during the landing phase, and you log your landings when you are the only person touching the controls it is quite simple.
The most common question that comes out of this is: "The student needed intervention during the flare, so I helped in correcting the pitch attitude. Both of us held the controls, who logs what?"
Now this is going to sound strange but according to the FAA, the airplane actually landed itself, because none of you could satisfy the "sole manipulator" clause in the contract.
My take on this: If you (FI) touch controls, because safety was in jeopardy and the wheels contact the ground while the both of you have your mittens on the stick, YOU get to log this landing. The FAA has made it clear via a clarification that airplanes do not land themselves, and considering that I doubt your airplane has a CAT IIIC auto land system, I encourage you to log this for your experience. Yet, if the student needed no intervention from you, it is not yours to log.


Next topic: Recency and flight instruction

(2) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this section, a person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft under day VFR or day IFR, provided no persons or property are carried on board the aircraft, other than those necessary for the conduct of the flight.

Now this means that if I am out of currency, day or night, I cannot instruct untill I have done my bounces? Wrong.
The FAA has pulled out a clarification notice explaining that a student during flight instruction is "necessary for the conduct of the flight" and is simply not a "paying passenger or passenger riding". Thereafter, you can go and rebuild your currency while flight instructing, at least for the takeoff/landing bit, NOT for the IFR currency.

I'll try to pull out and add the clarification for this when I come accross it, but is is hard to find.



Conclusion, the FAA should also clarify that Flight instructing is not a "Commercial" operation so that we may continue to flight instruct while flying for airlines and charters. Heck, the military folks get to fly guard on week ends and that counts as recreational flying according to the law. I have a hard time believing that loitering around at the helm of a C--130 or F-16 constitutes recreational flying, while you're getting paid by uncle sam.

[AirRabbit]

If I may, I'd like to throw in a word of caution. Operating an airplane under VFR rules in VMC conditions is classified that way because everyone expects the pilot to be looking outside the airplane. Of course, you are expected to cross-check your instruments; but, if you operate under VFR/VMC and look only at your instruments technically you are not flying in accordance with the rules. When you operate under IFR there is someone providing you information about what’s going on around you that you may not be able to see – the air traffic controller. When you operate under simulated IFR (under a hood – with a safety pilot) you still have someone providing you information about what’s going on around you that you may not be able to see – the safety pilot. So if you operate VFR (which requires a minimum ceiling and visibility) and you look strictly at your instruments, who is it that is providing you with information that may be critical to your safety? Understand, no one is likely to shoot you or anything like that if you do, but, one, I wouldn’t do it for safety reasons; and two, I'd be awfully careful about bragging about operating an airplane contrary to the rules.

Sorry. I don’t mean to sound like gloom and doom – but the rules are there for your safety and the safety of those around you.

[BMeister]

Oh I wasn't bragging about it, that's why I brought it up in a question, secondly, I was looking at outside 90% of the time, however what happens if your flying along an airway VFR to your destination, what are you doing then guessing where the airway is, so you dont star at the CDI

This post has been edited by Kilrah: Oct 26 2008, 04:09 AM

Reason for edit: Removed quote

[AirRabbit]

Oh I wasn't bragging about it, that's why I brought it up in a question, secondly, I was looking at outside 90% of the time, however what happens if your flying along an airway VFR to your destination, what are you doing then guessing where the airway is, so you dont star at the CDI

Look, my intent is not to get into a finger-pointing exercise here. You acknowledge that you ask a lot of questions (and I’m all in favor of someone asking rather than doing something wrong), and you also recognize that many here wonder why you don’t “look it up in the FAR/AIM like the rest of us;” but side-stepped that approach by saying you’re slowly learning how to do that. Some of your questions are good questions – but there are a lot of them that are answered easily by reading the rules.

Also, please don’t feel the necessity to become defensive … although, I DO see how my use of the word “bragging” could lead you to feel that way. For that, I apologize. Of course, flying VFR doesn’t mean never looking at your instruments. You may or may not know that airline pilots, flying on IFR clearances and who advise ATC that they have the airport “insight,” are often given the clearance, “cleared for the visual approach to Runway XX.” (That’s usually a clearance to help out the controller, not to help out the pilot, but that’s another issue for another time…) While not a VFR clearance, it is a clearance to maneuver the airplane to the runway by using visual references. However, what some folks don’t recognize is if an ILS is available and working on that runway, that pilot may not go below that ILS glide slope even though he/she is flying by visual references. This requires that pilot to pay very close attention to the instruments - even when flying by visual references.

I happen to believe quite strongly that instrument training should include a lot of instrument flying while NOT under the hood (somewhere in the neighborhood of one-quarter to one-third of the total training time) … where the responsibility for “seeing and being seen” would still remain with the instructor or safety pilot. I think being required to fly the instruments precisely while being able to see what is going on in the “outside world” while you are keeping those instrument readings precisely where you want them is a very valuable training aid. We used to say “one peek is worth a thousand cross-checks;” and it’s true. By flying primarily on instruments, but being able to periodically “peek” at the outside world, you get a much better understanding of what pitch, bank, and power setting changes do for you and why sometimes it’s too much and sometimes it’s not enough. I’m a very big believer in the idea of a pilot knowing where she/he is (spatially and geographically) at all times, knowing the attitude of the airplane at all times, knowing where he/she wants the airplane to go at all times, and knowing what control inputs are required to accomplish that goal at all times. And I believe that legitimized “peeking” helps make that idea a reality. Of course, not ALL instrument training should be conducted this way, and what there is of it should be distributed throughout the course. But, you’ll note, my suggestion for doing this, includes the presence of an instructor or safety pilot.

When you said, “I didn't have a safety pilot and I flew to an airport in VFR conditions and decided to try the approach there, by myself with no hood obviously in VMC, that's why it ended up in my logbook…” I was going on the assumption that you were familiar with FAR 61.51, that says “(g) Logging instrument flight time:(1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.” Note that it says “operates … SOLELY by reference to instruments.” Either you were operating solely by reference to instruments while flying VFR and thereby potentially jeopardizing safety, or you were not operating solely by reference to instruments and therefore entered untrue information in your logbook. Obviously, neither choice is admirable, which you recognized, given your comment “probably shouldn’t of logged it.” Your logbook is your testimony of what you’ve done in an aircraft. As such I always recommend that a logbook should contain whatever you want it to contain (as some have said here, including cake recipes) but whatever it contains should be as complete as possible and be factual. The “factual” part, because logbooks are used as evidence in court trials; used to verify a pilot’s experience to the FAA for additional licenses/ratings and for currency requirements; used for confirmation for pay purposes; and other such important issues. The complete part, and trust me on this, for a very meaningful nostalgia generator some distance in the future.

I recognize that for pilots just beginning their career, the numbers in the logbook are very important … but my advice is to simply fly … instruct … whatever you want. Get your experience flying. Log what, when, where, how much, and how long as completely and as accurately as you can – and don’t worry about the numbers. They will come – at first they won’t seem to come quickly enough – but, and again, trust me here, they WILL come. And you can ask any pilot anywhere, on this forum, or any other forum – it’s the QUALITY of the time that really counts; and that quality counts as much or more than the QUANTITY of the time.

[BMeister]

Hi thank you for your help and advice

when I did fly in VFR conditions and fly the approach I logged in the comments that I flew two approaches and wrote down two approaches down, with no safety pilot, so how should I deal with that, delete the entry leave the entry, Starting out you dont really know all the study you learn and you progress... so it's not a good thing to have in the logbook because it shows I flew two approaches in VMC without a safety pilot... so keep it there and dont do it again?

thanks

This post has been edited by Kilrah: Oct 26 2008, 04:10 AM

Reason for edit: Removed quote

[Harmattan96]

...so how should I deal with that, delete the entry leave the entry...

Well people typically add hours in logbooks, but nothing says that you can't substract them.
How about a new entry, all the way at the end, with today's date, negating just the two approaches, and in the remarks section explain what date was the error entry and why you are substracting it.
A logbook is nothing more then an accounting log, and sometimes you have to put negative entries in there, because of mistakes.

Rabbit, I said I counted oreos and skittles, not my cake recipies!!!!!

[AirRabbit]

Hi thank you for your help and advice
when I did fly in VFR conditions and fly the approach I logged in the comments that I flew two approaches and wrote down two approaches down, with no safety pilot, so how should I deal with that, delete the entry leave the entry, Starting out you dont really know all the study you learn and you progress... so it's not a good thing to have in the logbook because it shows I flew two approaches in VMC without a safety pilot... so keep it there and dont do it again?
thanks

Hey BMeister

Before I get to your question, you should know that I think you responded to my post in what I think is exactly the right way! My view is that a lot of folks starting out in this business, particularly when they are on the younger side, tend to get very defensive when someone gets the least bit critical of them. I was pretty critical – and instead of getting defensive, you said “thanks for the help and advice.” To me, that says a lot about your temperament, your disposition, and your integrity – and, in case you were wondering – that is a 3-word definition of character. If you mirror that character with dedication and honest effort, I suspect that you will have a very bright future in whatever it is you choose to do, including aviation.

Now, to your logbook entry: there is nothing wrong with flying to an airport VFR and following the ILS approach to the runway on which you are landing (in fact, that would be considered a professional thing to do) – and there’s nothing wrong with entering comments that say you flew those approaches – depending on where and how you made that entry. If you merely logged the total time of the flight and entered in the comments section that you “flew the ILS to Runway XX,” there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It would have been incorrect to log the time as “instrument time,” because you weren’t flying in actual or simulated instrument conditions. It would have been incorrect to log those approaches as “instrument approaches,” again, because you weren’t flying in actual or simulated instrument conditions. So, depending on how you have made logbook entries for these flights/approaches – you may, or may not, want to go back and make a correction. Like Harmattan96 has said, “sometimes you have to make ‘negative’ entries because of mistakes.” If you have entered those approaches as countable – I would merely delete them, which shouldn’t be a problem unless you are trying to keep a running total of instrument approaches – which will get very old very quick if you are. IF this is the case, I’d enter in the margin adjacent to the comments section – where ever you have room –“approaches flown under VFR.” If you have entered “Instrument” time for those approaches, and have included that time in your running total, I’d delete only those entries, use an asterisk to reference a new entry like Harmattan96 said – use the next available line, make a new entry, using today’s date, with an adjusted number in the “Instruments” time and include in the comments section the number of hours you’re subtracting and why you are subtracting those hours. Done! And if anyone bothers to ask you about those corrections, tell them the truth. We’ve ALL made mistakes. No biggie.

I’d spend a lot of time in the AIM and in parts 61 and 91, just reading. I’d make notes on what you don’t understand and see if any further reading might shed some light on the question. If not – you know how to ask questions on this forum. Flying pretty much makes us look carefully at ourselves – and to look with an objective eye. We must never let ourselves get into a circumstance that we cannot control – to do so could be fatal. That means admitting (first to yourself) what you can and cannot do – what you do and do not know. As you build time you will recognize that those who are just starting out have nothing to be self-conscience about – no matter what they don’t know or what they have not yet done. So, take it from someone who’s “been there and done that,” no matter where you are or how long you’ve been doing what you do – there will always be someone whose been there first and already done that; unless, of course, your name is ____ (fill-in the blank … Scott Crossfield, John Glenn, Neil Armstrong, etc. – and if you get into THAT club, you’re not going to be worried about much professionally!)

Rabbit, I said I counted oreos and skittles, not my cake recipies!!!!!

Well, I thought that with the reputation the French have for such luscious cakes, any reputable pilot with French blood in his veins would have, necessarily, squirreled away cake recipes in the most secure location – his logbook!

[BMeister]

Hi once again thanks for your kind words

And I truely mean it everyone who takes the time to help me Im very greatful, And I take it onboard,

I've learned a lot since Jan. 08 when I started out learning about flying, I've learned a lot, but almost nothing compared to most which Im hoping I will learn with experience.


I will always be a student of aviation and love to learn, Im 23, so Im just starting out, I wont tell you how my ratings or you'll slap yourself and wonder!! but, I'm learning and that makes me excited! !


As for the entry I I have a logbook by Cessna which gives me a place to add the entries then total them at the bottom of each page:

How the entry looks for that date:

Date, aircraft type, call sign, comments: VOR-A Runway 20 x2 then approaches 2. then NO atcual time or simulated time entered just solo/pic and total time.

so: 01/01/2008 C182 / N12345 : Vor-A Runway 20 x 2 4 day landings, 2 approaches, 1.4 solo/pic 1.4 total time


hope you all enjoyed your weekend,

Thanks again
BM

[Harmattan96]

Well, I thought that with the reputation the French have for such luscious cakes, any reputable pilot with French blood in his veins would have, necessarily, squirreled away cake recipes in the most secure location – his logbook!

Never had much of a sweet tooth (allthough I admit to enjoy some of the American "junk foods",with 12 yrs on US soil they can't go unoticed). No, Rabbit, a true Frenchman keeps a tally of the better wines, and corking dates, he encountered; but I keep those out of my logbook, they've found a life in my cell phone!!

[AirRabbit]

Never had much of a sweet tooth (allthough I admit to enjoy some of the American "junk foods",with 12 yrs on US soil they can't go unoticed). No, Rabbit, a true Frenchman keeps a tally of the better wines, and corking dates, he encountered; but I keep those out of my logbook, they've found a life in my cell phone!!

Of course! Of course! Of course! Sorry ... I should have RECALLED that about a Frenchman! Must have lost my head. Of course, good wines are FAR more important than cake recipes ... and I do know that ... forgive the faux pas!

[Piltdown Man]

Not forgotting of course, the names of good cheese shops, telephone numbers of restaurants, the locations of worthwhile patisseries, boulangeries and charcuteries... the finer things of life!

PM