Home





Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
 
Closed TopicStart new topic
> What If ?
AspiringPilot
post Sep 7 2006, 01:05 PM
Post #1


Airbus 380 Member
*****

Group: Full Access Members
Posts: 425
Joined: 24-March 06
Member No.: 3,514



What if Fuel Economy wasnt a limitation of the Aviation Industries. What would be different? Would the 747 have more engines? Could planes go faster ? Or could they fly higher than they do now.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
niko_future_pilo...
post Sep 7 2006, 02:59 PM
Post #2


cranky member
******

Group: Full Access Members
Posts: 777
Joined: 3-March 05
From: Boston, MA
Member No.: 952



I'm pretty sure they could go faster. (they could just all be supersonics i guess...). aside from that i dont know. why would they want to fly higher?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Archangel
post Sep 7 2006, 03:19 PM
Post #3


Space Shuttle Member
******

Group: Banned
Posts: 2,047
Joined: 8-December 04
From: McChord AFB 62 AW
Member No.: 333



QUOTE(AspiringPilot @ Sep 7 2006, 10:05 AM) [snapback]102844[/snapback]
What if Fuel Economy wasnt a limitation of the Aviation Industries. What would be different? Would the 747 have more engines? Could planes go faster ? Or could they fly higher than they do now.


Are you saying that planes never ran out of fuel? Or are you saying that a 747 could burn as much gas in total as a cessna 152 while traveling the normal distance of a 747. If you mean the second one then would you really want to fly a 20,000nm nonstop flight? Large planes like the 747 and a380 would be impractical when you can fill every small plane you have to the brim and fly 12,000 miles with ease.

If you mean the first option then there would certainly be people living on aircraft 24/7. Sky hotels, baseball at 15,000ft and other weird things like that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nameless
post Sep 7 2006, 04:28 PM
Post #4


Boeing 737 Member
***

Group: Full Access Members
Posts: 173
Joined: 30-March 06
Member No.: 3,577



QUOTE(AspiringPilot @ Sep 7 2006, 01:05 PM) [snapback]102844[/snapback]
What if Fuel Economy wasnt a limitation of the Aviation Industries. What would be different? Would the 747 have more engines? Could planes go faster ? Or could they fly higher than they do now.

No!
They would just have an extended range. Planes speeds are limited by their engines and the aerodynamics of a plane. I dont think a 747 could handle breaking the sound barrier. As for flying higher I don't think so because flying higher is a matter of less air over the wing or something complicated like that. I'm sure someone else can elaborate on that more than I can
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
AspiringPilot
post Sep 7 2006, 05:34 PM
Post #5


Airbus 380 Member
*****

Group: Full Access Members
Posts: 425
Joined: 24-March 06
Member No.: 3,514



Well you dont have to answer what I said I was just trying to bring some questions to get the brain flowing. I am sorry that I didnt elaborate on that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
rjb4000
post Sep 7 2006, 06:48 PM
Post #6


Space Shuttle Member
******

Group: FL350 CREW
Posts: 2,718
Joined: 13-December 04
From: Rhode Island / Daytona Beach, FL / Washington, DC
Member No.: 365



QUOTE(nameless @ Sep 7 2006, 04:28 PM) [snapback]102869[/snapback]
As for flying higher I don't think so because flying higher is a matter of less air over the wing or something complicated like that. I'm sure someone else can elaborate on that more than I can


The higher you fly, the less dense air becomes which means that there are fewer air molecules flowing over the wing at a given speed. This essentially means that in order to sustain flight at a higher altitude, you must travel faster. If you travel too close to the speed of sound however the quicker air flowing over the wing will go supersonic and cause a buffet. Slow down too much and you will stall the airplane due to the fact that there isn't a lot of air flowing over the wing. This envelope is called the coffin corner I believe and the limits of the envelope become closer as you climb. Eventually you can have a very small window in which to keep the airplane to prevent mach buffet and a stall. This essentially means that altitude is limited by wing shape.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Archangel
post Sep 8 2006, 12:31 AM
Post #7


Space Shuttle Member
******

Group: Banned
Posts: 2,047
Joined: 8-December 04
From: McChord AFB 62 AW
Member No.: 333



QUOTE(rjb4000 @ Sep 7 2006, 03:48 PM) [snapback]102876[/snapback]
The higher you fly, the less dense air becomes which means that there are fewer air molecules flowing over the wing at a given speed. This essentially means that in order to sustain flight at a higher altitude, you must travel faster. If you travel too close to the speed of sound however the quicker air flowing over the wing will go supersonic and cause a buffet. Slow down too much and you will stall the airplane due to the fact that there isn't a lot of air flowing over the wing. This envelope is called the coffin corner I believe and the limits of the envelope become closer as you climb. Eventually you can have a very small window in which to keep the airplane to prevent mach buffet and a stall. This essentially means that altitude is limited by wing shape.



Which is where lifting bodies come into play.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Harmattan96
post Sep 10 2006, 01:28 PM
Post #8


Out of control Frenchman
******

Group: Full Access Members
Posts: 810
Joined: 6-March 05
From: (ZZZZ) The blue planet
Member No.: 992



QUOTE(AspiringPilot @ Sep 7 2006, 01:05 PM) [snapback]102844[/snapback]
What if Fuel Economy wasnt a limitation of the Aviation Industries. What would be different? Would the 747 have more engines? Could planes go faster ? Or could they fly higher than they do now.


I think your question is a very interesting and very timely inquiry in an aviation industry lodged between a rock and hard place in regards to petrol prices.
I also think that it is one that could be answered with a very emotional human factor as a main character, let me explain before you switch to the next post...

The question if I understand it right is really the following: Would we not try bigger, faster, higher, and further, if we did not have a Damocles sword, called fuel-economy, hanging above our heads?

Well I firmly believe so! We could turn towards the automobile industry for that, an industry very well tune to the demands of its customers, one that truly follows to rules of supply and demand. Back a few decades when petrol prices where lower (not necessarily low), the average consumer had only one thing in mind fulfill a want and a need. The need was obviously a necessity to have a vehicle to achieve transport and make the modern life a reality. The want (usually the semi useless part) was to fulfill the first with a greater level of comfort , style and perhaps answer to a human specific envy ( overachieve the neighbor socially, respond to a heavy dose of machoism, whatever tickles your fancy really...).
In those days the automobile industry, having an accute sense for all of the above mentioned, happily supplied four-wheeled, large gas guzzling metal bricks, which could easily accomodate the occupants of a freshly arrived boat people from the island of Haiti. Some models would also respond to targeted specific wants such as more power, more speed, etc...you get the picture.
The problem in a dynamic of higher gas prices is really that the consumer sees a large portion of the budget that he could allocate to the "Wants" portion disappear, he still "needs" the transportation aspect, largely because society has built itself around those machines; however, the "wants" portion takes a back seat ride because it becomes expensive. Today the automobile industry tries to answer to the public demand by having a product more fuel efficient, unfortunately for the consumer this product does not respond well to its "wants", overtime the consumer will eventually settle and forget those "wants" and accept the current state of affairs, there is nothing like the human mind when it comes to adapting, it is quite incredible.

But enough with this parallel, let's talk airplanes.
Based on the above the same principle will apply anywhere, the current fleet of airplanes available reflects a similar cycle. The question is not would a 747 have more engines, fly higher or faster, the question is really would the 747 even exist , would the parameters used for engineering an aircraft be the same? The answer to that question is NO!!!
An airline (the one that transports people) does not buy airplanes because they like the model, an airline buys airplanes because they are trying to sell tickets to humans, driven by emotions (wants and needs). Those passengers need to be transported, but they want to do it in style, with class, with comfort, they want get there faster, and bla bla bla.
Of course an airline can't accomodate all of the needs of the people, because if they try they become inefficient, that is largely due in part to Petroleum prices and the cost of metal.
A brilliant example to this madness is the turboprop airplane, it was a very economical way for airlines to close small gaps and be VERY profitable while responding to the needs of the people; however the people did not find themselves fulfilled in their wants by this mode of transportation. They think that is noisy, small, slow, dangerous and they peer through the window at an Embraer jet or a Canadair jet which looks a lot nicer. The airline that operates the jets might not make as high of a profit margin as the turbo operator, but it is bound to eventually win the people that are right now sitting in the turboprop.
Petrol is price inelastic, we all need it we are willing to pay for it, whatever it costs, but in the process of it we are sacrificing our wants and those are not as price inelastic as our basic needs

If tomorrow an airline starts to operate airplanes that promises us Paris-Shangai in 2 hours while we nap in the comfort of seats getting a foot massage and listening to soothing music without even hearing the humming of the engines, we would all want in. But the reality is that no manufacturer would build such prouesse capable craft, because no operator would buy it, because the people would not pay for this high priced ticket, and this is all due to fuel economy .

This being said it is still my humble assessment of what I see and what I comprehend and while I step down from the soap box, I strongly invite other members to answer to the challenge of this very intelligent question. It so far has only received mockery and criticism which is reflective of the lack of thinking happening in the veins of this current society. It is not a question of science and air density but rather one of human proportions.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
charliepapa
post Sep 10 2006, 04:52 PM
Post #9


Space Shuttle Member
******

Group: Full Access Members
Posts: 716
Joined: 30-December 05
Member No.: 2,779



I just think it's a silly question. My five year old cousin told me when I asked her.... Mecontent20.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cobzz
post Sep 11 2006, 04:35 AM
Post #10


Space Shuttle Member
******

Group: Full Access Members
Posts: 564
Joined: 7-July 05
Member No.: 1,765



I'd expect research would be put into making shockwaves on supersonic airlins smaller, as well as research into making them quieter, and more fuel efficiant.

Also, why would a 747 need more engines? To be overpowered, to guzzle fuel reducing range?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
AspiringPilot
post Sep 16 2006, 09:15 PM
Post #11


Airbus 380 Member
*****

Group: Full Access Members
Posts: 425
Joined: 24-March 06
Member No.: 3,514



Well Charlie papa your niece isnt on the site thank you very much and if you dont like the question theirs no harm in ignoring . I think you should think before you speak sometimes. It might happen to everyone but you just dont stay stuff like that. Your just trying to instult my intelligence. Cobzz well answer the question. Disregard that fact.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
charliepapa
post Sep 17 2006, 04:54 AM
Post #12


Space Shuttle Member
******

Group: Full Access Members
Posts: 716
Joined: 30-December 05
Member No.: 2,779



QUOTE(AspiringPilot @ Sep 17 2006, 02:15 AM) [snapback]103739[/snapback]
Well Charlie papa your niece isnt on the site thank you very much and if you dont like the question theirs no harm in ignoring . I think you should think before you speak sometimes. It might happen to everyone but you just dont stay stuff like that. Your just trying to instult my intelligence. Cobzz well answer the question. Disregard that fact.


No, I don't need to insult your intelligence as by posting this... you did it for me. I don't see why people cannot think for themselves sometimes. It's as if people are posting out of sheer laziness. It's simple to work out really and I don't see why the kind chaps above have wasted their time bothered answering. This is like asking if your bed was painted a different colour would it make any difference. It's you that needs to think before you start typing... and if I don't call people out, they do it over and over and over again. Oh, and cousin is different to niece.

Research before you post otherwise you'll sound like an idiot. Research!!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
klm_city_hopper
post Sep 17 2006, 11:38 AM
Post #13


Space Shuttle Member
******

Group: Full Access Members
Posts: 1,684
Joined: 31-January 06
Member No.: 3,004



Does it matter! NO! Just stop arguing over petty stupid things.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
charliepapa
post Sep 17 2006, 11:52 AM
Post #14


Space Shuttle Member
******

Group: Full Access Members
Posts: 716
Joined: 30-December 05
Member No.: 2,779



QUOTE(klm_city_hopper @ Sep 17 2006, 04:38 PM) [snapback]103778[/snapback]
Does it matter! NO! Just stop arguing over petty stupid things.


I'll think you'll find it does. Especially if we are festooned with people itiching to shout SPAMMER!!!! when people post an opinion. This trash is welcomed with open arms though icon_rolleyes.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bluebird121
post Sep 17 2006, 01:18 PM
Post #15


Space Shuttle Member
******

Group: FL350 CREW
Posts: 3,772
Joined: 13-December 04
From: Caloundra, Queensland, Australia
Member No.: 367



This topic started off really well, with lots of excellent posts but it has now deteriorated into pure Spamming, with nothing constructive being added. Time to close this topic. I have locked it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Empress
post Sep 17 2006, 01:22 PM
Post #16


Space Shuttle Member
******

Group: FL350 CREW
Posts: 569
Joined: 16-May 05
From: Canada
Member No.: 1,529



Enough.

This childish bickering will not be tollerated.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Closed TopicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

 
 
Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 19th May 2013 - 06:36 PM

Home | Webmail | Forum | Random Video Generator | Link to us | Aircraft Fact Sheets | Help
Upload videos | Become a videographer | Terms of Use | Privacy | Contact us | About Flightlevel350.com | Ad Choices

© 2004 - 2009 Flightlevel350.com
Aviation Videos - Airplane Videos - Loudest place on the web!